ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[nostradamus]

Captain Prater,

Grand pooomba of alpa.

You are a Continental pilot. Your own fellow Continental pilots do not trust you. The following link proves it.

Later prater from your own fellow pilots. click here

Rebuttals would be appreciated from the alpa cheerleaders.

 

[nostradamus]

Captain Prater,

Grand pooomba of alpa.

You are a Continental pilot. Your own fellow Continental pilots do not trust you. The following link proves it.

"Those pilots cheer our effort (savecontract2008) and call us to lead an effort to attempt to decertify ALPA. WE URGE PATIENCE and believe our non-censored "web board" as you call it, can at least give our reps a place to find and give consideration to our opinions.

The CAL MEC instability is yet another example of pilots saying enough is enough. Keeping the "work" (of unionism) in house for political reasons is killing our ability to move forward as a pilot group. "






Later prater from your own fellow pilots. click here

Rebuttals would be appreciated from the alpa cheerleaders.

 

[nostradamus]

Captain Prater quote January 2008 quote;

"We are prepared to confront USAPA’s threat to undercut the efforts of the US Airways pilots and their international union to address the important issues facing all US Airways pilots. All ALPA pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots to assist you in accomplishing your goals. "

Captain prater,

You put out an assinine video to try to peer pressure and intimidate US Airways pilots. Where is that video now? You put on the alpa web site the elephant in the crew room letter to intimidate US Airways pilots. Where is that now?

Now you claim all alpa pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots?


Too little too late.

The problem with pay for pilots and solidarity,.................................

To paraphrase a presidential election byword,


It's the seniority issue stupid!

 

[nostradamus]

Captain Prater quote January 2008 quote;

"We are prepared to confront USAPA’s threat to undercut the efforts of the US Airways pilots and their international union to address the important issues facing all US Airways pilots. All ALPA pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots to assist you in accomplishing your goals. "

Captain prater,

You put out an asinine video to try to peer pressure and intimidate US Airways pilots. Where is that video now? You put on the alpa web site the elephant in the crew room letter to intimidate US Airways pilots. Where is that now?

Now you claim all alpa pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots?


Too little too late.

The problem with pay for pilots and solidarity,.................................

To paraphrase a presidential election byword,


It's the seniority issue stupid!

NMB, USAPA, stand by for the repo of Usairways alpa mec.

 

[700UW]

Wrong! and how could pilot perform "struck work" as none exercised replacement work. In fact, little boy, very few, if any, actually went to work against the IAM.

You may be a liar, sir.

It was witnessed by our friends in catering, customer service and inflight.

 

[700UW]

That's rich rich,

I remember being there back then. Are you saying the company reached an agreement to pay pilots to clean airplanes? We can't even get our pilots to clean up their own mess out of the cockpit these days. I know for a fact that none of them turned a wrench which is what the IAM strike was about back in 92. The cleaners were just along for the ride. I also remember most of the mechanics wanted to become a seperate union from us "lowly" utility workers. (AMFA I believe is what they wanted to become) It didn't succeed, but I know they really, really didn't like us very much. I remember you being the second shift shop steward for Utility. You had a lot in common with the ALPA reps that we are working to get rid of right now. I remember that when there was any real work to be done there was majically some union work that needed to be taken care of. I never saw you clean anything bigger than an F28 over there on A concourse. You know i'm just kidding. You were one of the hardest workers we had. (cough cough)

Thats ironic, cause I did not work A-Con before the strike, WJ, TS and I worked the top of C-Con, I filed many grievances cause we were so short handed, that when we got up on the planes the crews were all ready cleaning them.

Then I was moved to D-Con by Yutzy as I was labeled a "trouble maker" and he had agents cleaning the other inbounds when we were up on one, only to have to call the FDA and Customs to get that stopped.

Try again!

Apparently you cant comprehend what you read, the company reached an agreement with ALPA for them to cross the picket lines, they grounded all the DC9s, MD80, F28s, F100s and 737-200s yet every pilot got paid, that is a fact.

 

[end_of_alpa]

January 31, 2008

Captain Jack
Chairman
US Airways Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association

Captain John
Chairman
America West Master Executive Council


Dear John and Jack:

I am writing to thank you both for your support, and that of your fellow officers, for continuing to provide to all US Airways pilots the benefits of ALPA representation. Thank you, John, for the America West MEC resolution passed several weeks ago expressing that support. Jack, thank you for the recent letter from you and your fellow US Airways MEC officers, Kim Allen Snider and Mike D’Angelo.

As the letter from the US Airways MEC officers stated, no elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member of principle would try to serve two unions. I agree with you that any ALPA pilot who believes that retaining ALPA is not in their best interest should not remain as an elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member. For ALPA LECs, representatives, or committee members to support another union not only represents acting contrary to the best interests of the Association, it is improper and dishonest.

As I have stated before, the Air Line Pilots Association is fully committed to supporting your efforts with all the resources, both technical and financial, that are necessary for the steering committee members to oversee the development of a comprehensive contract proposal for the joint negotiations–a proposal that advances the issues of both pilot groups, including seniority implementation issues, pay, work rules, benefits, and career security.

We are prepared to confront USAPA’s threat to undercut the efforts of the US Airways pilots and their international union to address the important issues facing all US Airways pilots. All ALPA pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots to assist you in accomplishing your goals. All US Airways pilot representatives, elected and appointed, should do the same. We cannot allow pilots to pose as ALPA representatives while promoting USAPA’s interests by attempting to undermine your efforts to find solutions for your pilots. Those with ulterior motives–who seek the failure of your work in order to advance another agenda–must be called out and held accountable. Under the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, I have a responsibility to not allow ALPA’s resources and representational status to be misused in such a manner.

Consistent with these responsibilities, I will be personally calling the elected representatives from each of your airlines to discuss this issue and to underscore the importance of their public support for our union–the pilots’ union–at this critical time.

Please be assured that I will take all appropriate action to ensure that our pilots’ resources and ALPA representational status are not improperly utilized against our pilots’ own union.

In solidarity,

Captain John
ALPA President


Nostradamus translation,

Lions and tigers and bears, Oh MY!!!!!!

I haven't seen this letter yet. How do you get it?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Thats ironic, cause I did not work A-Con before the strike, WJ, TS and I worked the top of C-Con, I filed many grievances cause we were so short handed, that when we got up on the planes the crews were all ready cleaning them.

Then I was moved to D-Con by Yutzy as I was labeled a "trouble maker" and he had agents cleaning the other inbounds when we were up on one, only to have to call the FDA and Customs to get that stopped.

Try again!

Apparently you cant comprehend what you read, the company reached an agreement with ALPA for them to cross the picket lines, they grounded all the DC9s, MD80, F28s, F100s and 737-200s yet every pilot got paid, that is a fact.

I flew a 767 out of LAX the last day of that strike. I can recall NO picket lines when I went to work that day. Having said that, troublemaker explains your hostility to us. Besides, we DID have a mechanical that day and the mechanics were there in FULL force. And if ALPA made a "back room deal" agreement for pilots crossing the picket line, your wondering WHY we want to leave ALPA? In house unions are able to "solidify" around company interests and their own rather than subjecting their interests to the wants and interests of the "national" unions in the same craft and/or class. In short, the theory is "bigger is better" has not supported the logic that a national union has any more bargaining power than an in-house union.

I talk about this topic here because IF a labor coalition is to have any teeth with the company in-house unions should coalesce AMONGST themselves in relation to the company and BARGAIN collectively...something I have ALWAYS agreed with. In short, if one goes, we ALL go.

They're doing BACK ROOM DEALING NOW, IN COMPLETE VIOLATION OF SEVERAL STANDING RESOLUTIONS!

"The Steering Committees are meeting at a neutral site, and to give this process the best chance for success, both sides have agreed to a communications blackout during this time."

These actions should outrage BOTH groups of pilots, both East and West. When the Representatives act CONTRARY to the rule of law, "star chamber" secret proceedings such as what is now going on in Herndon should tell you that you NEED SOMTHING DIFFERENT.

700UW...you hate pilots and for that I am sorry. I know anything short of me coming to you and licking the bottom of your shoes falls short. The rage and hostility you feel towards us are problematic and contentious in the Airline industry and will remain so for years to come.

The best answer I can give EVERYONE here is simple....working for "the man" has a downside and the severity of it is going to be high in the industry for years to come. Labor union "whipsaw" occurs across craft and/or class in each endeavor because everyone thinks they deserve a bigger piece of that pie than the other. The unfortunate task a corporate leader has is to balance the pie among all the groups.....employees, shareholders and customers. Each group is tugging the corporation for its share.

Employees want more money. Shareholders want greater ROI. Customers want a "cheaper" (should be cost effective) price. And the company itself needs to retain some earnings to satisfy strategic objectives for perpetuity of the entity.

If OUR company could STABILIZE and balance those objectives appropriately, like SWA for example, issues like what the pilots have here at US Airways could be minimized. The reason why United is having trouble finding and RETAINING good leadership is the same when it was ten years ago....leadership looks at the unionization issues at each operation and the larger the company, the more herculean the task. SWA will be in the same boat when oil futures stabilize over the long haul and the other airlines compete for the same contracts. Of course the strength of their balance sheet and the stability of their labor are assets that are hard to duplicate in this industry right now.

The same with unions. Make no mistake....Prater is in a mess not of his own making. It was coming for sometime. The issue is how the leader deals with it. In his case I do not think anyone feels any differently than I do: Do you want Prater to champion your cause as leader? I KNOW I DON'T.

 

[700UW]

I dont hate pilots, I have some good friends that are pilots, what I do not care for it the elitist attitude that most pilots carry.

I am a trade unionist, and what you and your usaps are doing is against what organized labor stands for, you took a hit in your seniority, yes that sucks, but work to solidify, not divide and conquer.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I dont hate pilots, I have some good friends that are pilots, what I do not care for it the elitist attitude that most pilots carry.

I am a trade unionist, and what you and your usaps are doing is against what organized labor stands for, you took a hit in your seniority, yes that sucks, but work to solidify, not divide and conquer.

And this is WHERE WE DIFFER. The history of trade unionism and what YOU describe only serves to DIVIDE. We will NEVER AGREE ON THIS PRINCIPLE. The very reason unions were formed was to UNITE the groups in VALUE so that management could NOT favor youth over age. Younger workers will work for lower wages to the disadvantage of senior and established workers. This was the VERY REASON for labor unions. Without seniority and the very "hit" you describe, THERE IS NO REASON FOR A UNION.

We'll never agree. NEVER. You espouse unionist principles yet throw them aside because your so-called "friend" pilots are evidently NOT elietist. However, you confuse elietist with "condescending" and I know MANY people who are just that. I have ALWAYS felt that I put my pants on the same way that you do in the morning (I presume you wear pants). The only sense of entitlement I preach is that of sweat equity...and THAT is what the very essence of what unionism is. You sure like to beat the drum for ALPA.

WHY IS IT A CRIME FOR US TO CHOOSE OUR OWN UNION REPRESENTATION THAT YOU ARE SO AGAINST?

So we VOTE. If the East pilots do not have the BALLS to stand up and fight their demise through seniority devaluation...senior or junior.....we've failed as a union and ALL BETS ARE OFF! You don't agree with me...for now. But I guarantee that with the mergers coming...if they happen to big carriers....WILL BE A BLOODBATH among pilot unions and most likely ALL unions. Mergers ALWAYS diminish union members valuations. ALWAYS. Then when they get broken up or fail, unionism resets the clock....again. You "unionist" never learn. And that is what I hope to change with a new union.

This is why EVERY PILOT ON RLA premises better have side jobs or ready to bail. IT WILL BE NASTY....and it WILL HAPPEN SOON.

 

[exB717Flyer]

How would you define "better"?

Well, that was a tongue-in-cheek comment since I've said numerous times that all pilot unions are pretty much the same. Only you guys seem to think changing unions will result in any improvement.

So, how many months after USAPA represents US and does better than ALPA will you wait?

Oh, so you mean USAPA would suddenly get integrity and accept the binding arbitration and Transition Agreement? Now that would be something better than ALPA.

So, the TWA guys saved the assets for the creditors by acquiesing to vague threats. Ok.

The threat from the judge was anything but vague. And the creditors got very little.

TWA liquidated well after the transition was complete, cleaning up the debris through ch 7 that did not get rolled into the merger. How does that conflict with what I said?

After the sale closed all the TWA employees essentially transfered from the old TWA to a new company, TWA Llc, a Wholly Owned Subsidiary of American Airlines. The old TWA remained as a shell company purely to finish up paperwork.

Point is, you guys didn't even try, due to "advice" from your franchisor, ALPA?

And my point is that our MEC told us the facts and we were in almost universal agreement. You're trying to create a conflict when there was none. History has proven that one way or another our LPPs were toast.

You are giving them potential excuses without even knowing probable outcome.

There is no evidence to indicate that the legal opinion we received on this issue was faulty. Fighting just for the sake of fighting is not smart.

Do you know about the "Heavens Gate" dudes in Rancho Santa Fe?

Is this a refererence to what USAPA supporters have in mind when they lose the election?

At the very least, the pension could have been frozen.

I'm not knowledgable of the circumstances of you losing your pension. All I can observe is that every airline that goes through Cahpter 11 loses their pensions. And USAirway went through two. Very few soldiers fight battles they know are lost.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I am a trade unionist, and what you and your usaps are doing is against what organized labor stands for, you took a hit in your seniority, yes that sucks, but work to solidify, not divide and conquer.

Talk about rich

The IAM not only crossed the picket line at NWA but they told their members to do so. The IAM told their member to perform the struck work.

Did the IAM divide and conquer at NWA?
Did the IAM go against what organized labor stand for?


Let us hear what Mr. Trade Unionist from the IAM has to say. Don't let the "facts" get in your way this time.

 

[767jetz]

Let me preface this post by saying that while we are obviously on different sides of the Nicolau issue, IMO your voice is one of thoughtful debate and deliberation, and mostly void of the emotional rhetoric and insults that permeate from many of your peers. While I respect many things you say and even occasionally agree, I must rebut to a few of your statements.

The very reason unions were formed was to UNITE the groups in VALUE so that management could NOT favor youth over age. Younger workers will work for lower wages to the disadvantage of senior and established workers. This was the VERY REASON for labor unions.

Unions were not formed exclusively on the principle of favoring age over youth. Unions were formed on the belief that there is strength and leverage in the unity of the entire membership speaking as one. Otherwise management would not just favor youth (new workers at low pay) over age (older members at higher pay). They would offer jobs to the lowest bidder (regardless of age or longevity) and each employee would basically work by individual contract. Imagine if the auto manufacturing giants were able to negotiate with each worker individually. Unions were formed on the principle that every worker should be payed a livable wage and treated equally and fairly by corporations who's only purpose was to fill positions at the lowest possible cost. Longevity was a concept that materialized as a result of the unions unity, collective bargaining and lobbying for laws that govern union/employee protocol. However, as we well know, in this profession the thought of massive turmoil and consolidation was never considered in the early years. Hence the lack of a national seniority system for all pilots. Longevity became a measure within each individual group.

However, you confuse elietist with "condescending" and I know MANY people who are just that. I have ALWAYS felt that I put my pants on the same way that you do in the morning (I presume you wear pants).

I agree that the condescending pilots among us are the ones who give many the impression if elitism. Everyone puts their pants on the same way. I myself started my career "smashing bags" at JFK for United Airlines. It's amazing how differently the ramp service personal respond to me during my walkarounds when they find this out. (PS. I did not keep my DOH or LOS when I returned to UA as a pilot.)

WHY IS IT A CRIME FOR US TO CHOOSE OUR OWN UNION REPRESENTATION THAT YOU ARE SO AGAINST?

It is not a crime to choose your representation. What many find to be criminal is the perception that changing representation is specifically in order to avoid the consequences of an agreed upon process that played out differently than one side had hoped, and then claiming "majority rules" to impose their will onto their peers. Even though I believe this strategy leads down a dead end and will not materialize from a legal perspective, the fact that it is being attempted leaves many with a lack of trust or respect for those responsible, and a sincere disappointment in the lack of inegrity.

 

[700UW]

Do you really think the IAM would ever honor an AMFA picket line?

And last time I checked, no one at NW honored their line.

 

[Phoenix]

I haven't seen this letter yet. How do you get it?

On the ALPA message board you can select to have new topics and posts to the board emailed to you (in options). This also allows you to get posts that they later delete.