ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[nostradamus]

"Clearly, in such discussions with the US Airways pilots, we would view a date- of-hire type of integration as a completely unworkable solution for the America West pilots."


What did never had an apple to bite into before baker mean when he said it is an unworkable solution??????? To me it means that if the mediated-arbitration situation did not go your way it would have been an unworkable" situation." (we will not "man" up then)



article below



PHOENIX, May 19 /PRNewswire/ -- Captain JR Baker, chairman of the America West Airlines unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, made this statement today following America West's (NYSE: AWA - News) announcement that it will merge with US Airways.


"Protecting and defending the careers of America West pilots are our top priorities.

In 1997, we saw the potential for a transaction in our future and were determined not to be caught behind the power curve if our company was involved in an agreement. The AWA pilots started a separate merger fund to cover all outside expenses, and it has grown substantially during the past eight years.

When news of discussions between America West and US Airways first came to light, we set in motion measures enabling us to more efficiently realize our goals. Our teams are in place, and we are fully prepared to safeguard the careers of America West pilots who put their trust in this union.

In our profession, seniority is everything. To be clear our union's Merger Policy provides for a process and timeframe for events to occur, but does not dictate how two ALPA pilot groups will integrate their seniority lists. Specifics on how the two merge their seniority lists are left up to negotiations between the pilot groups involved; however, if no agreement is reached, a merged list would emerge from a mediation-arbitration process. Clearly, in such discussions with the US Airways pilots, we would view a date- of-hire type of integration as a completely unworkable solution for the America West pilots.

While details of the transaction continue to evolve, we remain focused on our priorities: protecting and defending the career expectations of America West pilots. As such, we will not allow America West management to lose focus on running an efficient airline or forget their commitment of operating in the best interests of the employees.

We are a vital part of America West, and we will not allow our pilots' career expectations to be sacrificed as a result of our airline's success." The Air Line Pilots Association is the bargaining agent for the more than 1,900 pilots at America West Airlines. Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world's largest pilot union, representing 64,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the United States and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at

 

[nostradamus]

Baker former AWA mec guy now on the alpa "concerned" pilots that can drop trips committee, then we get a job at alpa national coward quote below.

"The America West pilots have made our share of sacrifices too, but our pilots never had an apple to bite. For a long time, the last 20 years, we've been at the bottom of the industry."

baker awa pilots bottom of the industry never had an apple to bite into article click here.

Baker you never had and apple to bite into, but you are making it up kissing praters larger than life and larger than average cheeks. Coward.

 

[767jetz]

That was not what I was saying. By inference, what would the United pilots do if they were placed in a postition that was so unaceptable to them that they wouldn't accept it, what do you think THEY would do?

Depends. In your hypothetical situation did the UA pilots attempt to obtain something completely unreasonable, show no flexibility or real negotiating intention, and then even in the face of guidance and direction from the mediator and then the arbitrator unyieldingly stick to such an unrealistic solution while agreeing to accept the arbitrators final decision??? If so, then I'd say the UA pilots would have to live with it. In other words, were we really "placed" there or did we arrive their by our own actions (or lack thereof)???

But back to the real world, a Nicolau-like solution with relative position and protection of career expectations would be acceptable. IN fact this is what we proffered during the attempted acquisition of US in 2000, only to be met with delusions of grandeur by the very same East pilots. UA ALPA's MEC is well aware of the pitfalls of arbitration, and will go to great lengths to negotiate a solution before submitting to arbitration.

 

[nostradamus]

UA ALPA's MEC is well aware of the pitfalls of arbitration, and will go to great lengths to negotiate a solution before submitting to arbitration.

767jets, you are a united airlines pilot,

Where did you learn this wise lesson. You seem to spend a lot of time on a board that is not associated with your airline. You are allowed to do so but it is troubling to know that it may be taking you away from one of your most important responsibilities.

Yea, I know, you think I want to fly the space shuttle and I am living my life vicariously through your 767, but I used something large to get happiness in life, I did not have something small and fly something big to try to find happiness like you are.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (end_of_alpa @ Feb 1 2008, 09:31 PM)
That was not what I was saying. By inference, what would the United pilots do if they were placed in a postition that was so unaceptable to them that they wouldn't accept it, what do you think THEY would do?"

Depends.

....followed by standard rhetoric...and wholesale double talk.

Yep...I'm sure that it would "Depend"

You've an earlier post noting that Alpa national didn't directly hand you your groups' many negotiating defeats and downturns of recent years. I'm curious...Exactly WHAT did Alpa national ever do FOR you guys?...besides destroying DOH as being the rational precept for seniority of course....and; What's the possible utility value to any/all line pilots gained from maintaining that bloated buncha' buffoons? By any valuation, be it of dues monies gathered/spent by them..great victories achieved/etc....just what's the actual value of those people and that precious "Alpa Mother Ship" to working line pilots anywhere?

 

[AWA320]

four year wonder boy.

What's your point there lucky to even have a job today??? No point at all just theft right?? Like I said looking forward to the day when usair is gone for good...

 

[end_of_alpa]

Depends. In your hypothetical situation did the UA pilots attempt to obtain something completely unreasonable, show no flexibility or real negotiating intention, and then even in the face of guidance and direction from the mediator and then the arbitrator unyieldingly stick to such an unrealistic solution while agreeing to accept the arbitrators final decision??? If so, then I'd say the UA pilots would have to live with it. In other words, were we really "placed" there or did we arrive their by our own actions (or lack thereof)???

But back to the real world, a Nicolau-like solution with relative position and protection of career expectations would be acceptable. IN fact this is what we proffered during the attempted acquisition of US in 2000, only to be met with delusions of grandeur by the very same East pilots. UA ALPA's MEC is well aware of the pitfalls of arbitration, and will go to great lengths to negotiate a solution before submitting to arbitration.

We ARE in the "REAL WORLD". Nicolau may be acceptable to YOU, but UNTIL IT HAPPENS, you honestly cannot say United pilots wouldn't do the same IF it was "unacceptable" to your "brothers and sisters". Nicolau will NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY ON THE EAST SIDE. The logic and reason, or lack thereof, used in Nicolau was not able to convince the East pilots that it was FAIR OR REASONABLE. We have a revolution going on over here and you ALPA pilots don't like it. The majority of ALPA pilots combined are on average much junior relative to us. What you want to do is sacrifice the age now so you'll have it later...and we're NOT buying it. Us "old guys" are leveraging our MAJORITY to keep what we worked for....and this "topsy-turvey" logic of "policy without principle" guarantees one thing....revolution in the ALPA ranks.

You speak for YOU. But YOU have to convince 8500 others. I'm saying if YOU went to great lengths to negotiate a solution, went to an ALPA arbitration and the ALPA arbitrator, for example, put the overwhelming amount of the United pilots BELOW what they thought was fair....what do you think YOU would do and do you think the majority of YOUR pilots in YOUR situation would consider it fair? The process ALPA provides is a process in ALPA and is not like that law just recently codified with the Presidents signing, A-M LPP. It's obvious ALPA went to GREAT LENGTHS to keep intra-ALPA mergers EXCLUDED from the law.

Look, the hypothetical has arrived for us. It ISN'T a matter of fairness. The seniority "awarded" to me by the award sacrifices my years of service, at my expense for the "juniority" of another. I am not giving it up if I am supported by the majority of MY brothers and sisters. Almost EVERY other group of employees in every other industry that is unionized recognise DOH/LOS protections. If we don't here, then there is no unionism. That is a fact.

You better get ready for "whipsaw" because US Airways pilots will do what they have to to keep their flying jobs if that is what they feel is worth it.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Let me see if they submited to binding arbitration they would probably accept it, and if they got a Nicolau type award they would be very happy indeed, but I see where you are trying to bait me, if they were not happy thay would probably do the same thing the ozark/ air wisconsin pilots did, and the outcome would be the same, just like it will be with your usapa.

Ozark/Air Wisconsin......glad you read that case. NOT! Ozark never merged with Air Wisconsin.

When we vote, you'll see.

 

[end_of_alpa]

It is not a crime to choose your representation. What many find to be criminal is the perception that changing representation is specifically in order to avoid the consequences of an agreed upon process that played out differently than one side had hoped, and then claiming "majority rules" to impose their will onto their peers. Even though I believe this strategy leads down a dead end and will not materialize from a legal perspective, the fact that it is being attempted leaves many with a lack of trust or respect for those responsible, and a sincere disappointment in the lack of inegrity.



What he said.

Lack of trust AND/OR repspect is a HALLMARK of ALPA. Where have you guys been? Go back and READ Flying the Line Vol. I and II. Read the books out their the Bethune and others wrote. Pilots have been screwing pilots for over seventy five years. That is why the case law keeps piling up.

We're having a vote, and when we get out of ALPA we'll all be in a better position.

As far as legal perspective, we'll let YOU sue and play it out in the courts. Having said that, the REPRESENTATIVES sold all of us down the road. You're mad at me and +3,100 pilots who won't vote for a contract with the Nicolau award. It is my right to vote, their right to vote, and if we vote no because of Nicolau, that IS our right. That is NOT going back on my word....a word which I never signed on to, a word that +3,100 never signed on to, a word that +1,800 AWA pilots never signed on to. ALPA national promised you, East MEC "promised" us, West MEC "promised" you, but in the end, only the vote will secure it. And if that vote is unatainable you blame ME for going back on MY word? You may want to sue ALPA for not "guaranteeing" the promise that you'll get a favorable vote from the "rank and file".

Because in the end, that is what they did...vote pandering.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What's your point there lucky to even have a job today??? No point at all just theft right?? Like I said looking forward to the day when usair is gone for good...

You could do us ALL a favor and just quit now since you think so "highly" of your "career".

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Like I said looking forward to the day when usair is gone for good...

That's pretty cynical coming from a man in your position. I wonder how many of your west brethren feel that way? Like another poster said, why don't you just quit now?

 

[Phoenix]

In just two days Council 90 brings us two letters whining about integrity of reps who are allegedly serving two unions. Funny... that is what Prater is saying too.

Neither of them get it. Reps don't serve "unions" they serve the pilots according to the Constitution and Bylaws that the pilots adopted.

Is it an irony then that Council 90 is refusing to represent the pilots by calling an LEC meeting to allow the recall vote, according the Constitution and Bylaws? In true ALPA fashion, Council 90 prefers to think of themselves as an "information service" rather than a union that allows votes. They are planning more informational meetings, sans recall vote, in the near future, in order to serve your "Union".

Still no word on when they will grow some "principle" (that they seem to have an obsession with) and hold the LEC meeting.

Council 90 UPDATE


Saturday, February 2, 2008

Fellow pilots,


One of the questions that came up at the briefing on the 22nd of January was our allegiance to ALPA.

Let us be clear: the instant we feel that there is a better option than ALPA for the representation of our pilots, we will resign from ALPA.

There is no room for “double agentâ€￾ activity in the representation of the pilots of USAirways. Working at cross purposes to the best interests of our pilots is simply wrong.

ALPA is not perfect, but it is the best option we have.

There are many reasons we are certain that remaining with ALPA is a good idea. We held the informational meeting in Charlotte to provide you with access to information and people so that you could examine your own reasons. Many of you have asked that we hold additional briefings in Charlotte and we will do so on Wednesday, February 13 from 10:00 am to 4:00 pm in the conference room behind the Charlotte Business Center on the main floor of the food court in CLT.

Fraternally,

Marshall Lance Lyle

 

[AWA320]

You could do us ALL a favor and just quit now since you think so "highly" of your "career".

Absolutly not! I wouldn't give you the pleasure but will love the moment they announce the words "cease operations" you see that way the entire industry will suddenly have the cure for your diease!!! UNEMPLOYMENT...

 

[end_of_alpa]

Absolutly not! I wouldn't give you the pleasure but will love the moment they announce the words "cease operations" you see that way the entire industry will suddenly have the cure for your diease!!! UNEMPLOYMENT...

Actually, I am already prepared for this eventuallity. Disease. I'll agree with you there. We are all exposed to this sorry excuse for a "diseased" union called ALPA.

 

[Phoenix]

That's pretty cynical coming from a man in your position. I wonder how many of your west brethren feel that way? Like another poster said, why don't you just quit now?

But then he wouldn't have a reason to produce a sequel to his movie with the barn yard theme.