ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[exB717Flyer]

To what do you point to corroborate your opinion?

It would've been imprudent for our MEC to put the LPPs issue to vote. Had it been put to a vote the result would've been identical.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Mr barely three year seniority, your alpa attorney advised your former TWA pilots to trust them.

You forgot to mention that our attorney was Roland Wilder.

 

[nostradamus]

You forgot to mention that our attorney was Roland Wilder.

I did not have to mention you are a hypocrite either.

 

[700UW]

Your AWA pilots scabbed with United pilots in Australia during the Ansett job action, but I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda......

And US pilots scabbed and made a secret deal with the company to cross the IAM Picket Line in 1992, Pot Meet Kettle.

 

[Pilot692]

From prior post:

QUOTE
If you didn't the judge would do it for you?To be precise, the judge told us he'd abrogate the entire contract.
QUOTE
By chance, was it the ALPA experts who told you that?The judge told us. ALPA told us we didn't have any choice.


Another reason to dump ALPA.

A bk judge may NOT abrogate a contract unless the company in ch 11 asks him. He can only rule on requested changes to the contract and then those changes he approves are only in effect until the company exits ch 11.

I would suggest that the "judge" did not tell you that, that ALPA Natl lied about the situation.

Also, gets better.

EXB717Flyer
QUOTE Your pension was toast no matter which union represented you. It's what happens in Chapter 11.

Wrong again. At least you are consistently wrong.

The company asked ALPA to freeze the plan nine months prior to the "termination". They, first, asked the bk judge to have the plan frozen. When the company realized ALPA was flat on its back sucking hind, the company changed their request to termination. The judge ruled that the company would have to "negotiate" the termination, that he would not rule on that request. The weak "leadership" coupled with ALPA Natl ignorance (or, worse, compliance) decided to fold, never even considering the entire time the issue of freezing the plan vs termination - per MEC negotiating chair directly to me. I do know for a fact (witnesses) that your union fielded absolutely not one actuary to verify any data supplied by the company despite Constitution and Bylaws demand to do so.

Considering the above, I would be compelled to say that the company was seeking relief from the next few pension payments (after paying nothing into the plan for five plus years) and due to negligence (possibly malicious) ALPA Natl allowed (possibly in partnership with the company) an unnecessary travesty to occur.

Reducing costs only gives a management team a breather space to reorganize. It does not, beyond that, "SAVE" a company.

This leads to my next point; let's say the company deliberately gave ALPA false data in order to "drive" them to make the decision they made (knowing also that ALPA EF&A had no one qualified to analyze the plan) and if that data could be acquired, could the PBGC be forced to return the plan to the company as it had been funded to within minimum requirements all along? If this can be proved, some folks (read Siegal) could end up in the can... It still blows my mind that no one in ALPA (even though indemnified) ever called for a forensic accounting of the pension plan.

 

[nostradamus]

Careful oh great progNOSticator... Somehow I suspect these folks you quote are the very scabs that ALPA let back in the union. But then I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda....

Laughable!!!!

Interesting quote you have. John Prater president of alpa, is a Continental pilot. He put put out a scab list that many AWA pilots are on, if you request a web site it is no longer available, but I have the list if you need it. Now prater does not think scabs are a problem.

Atlas pilots were called scabs by alpa but they sued alpa and won.

Atlas air was accused by alpa of being scabs, Atlas sued and won link click here.

alpa says sorry because the have a lawsuit against them article, say your sorry, ok momma

Prater as alpa's new leader was for the 60 year old retirement rule. Then a few months later he was for increasing the retirement age of pilots.

What is alpa' favorite syrup.

 

[Pilot692]

Or maybe, just maybe it is inherent in the culture of East pilots. You keep saying ALPA this and ALPA that, and even though it is your own East pilots, you blame ALPA national. Why not just replace the MEC reps if, "without fail" things got worse and worse over the years. Did YOU ever try to get involved and change anything form the inside? Did you ever run for an office and effect a change from within. Or were you content to sit on the outside of the process and complain when things didn't go the way you want?

Yes, yes... I've heard all the talk about not having a vote and ALPA corruption. Say what you will, but it is still your own pilots who are responsible and should be held accountable. It is a democratic process. Did any of us get to vote on whether or not to go to war in Iraq? Of course not. We have an elected government with checks and balances and the Commander in Chief sent us to war. Do we now go and blame the EU or NATO or the UN? It's real easy to sit back with your mouth shut and go along for the ride when things are going your way, only to scream and yell when you are not happy with the result. USAPA will be no different in the long run because it will still be run by the East pilots, just like your ALPA MEC. The ONLY difference is that you hope it will allow you to walk away from a past mistake and get a do-over with respect to the Nicolau award. Everything else in your argument is simply white noise.

You see, these "problems" you refer to that are "inherent" in ALPA (your words) do not exist at other properties. Sure there are always people who are not 100% satisfied. You can't please everyone all the time. But when that happens, we get involved, voice our concerns, and come up with common goals. And sometimes the leadership must go to make room for new thinking. (Just like what has occurred at UA with our new Master Chairman and the MEC shakeup.) But throughout the process we stay involved, stay connected, and control our own destiny. ALPA national didn't force ESOP on us. ALPA national didn't force 2 rounds of concessions on us. ALPA national didn't give up our pensions. ALPA national didn't come up with the Convertible Note and the GAP 1 & GAP 2 allocation process that many were not happy about. ALPA national is not responsible for our unity either. Those things fall squarely at our feet as UA pilots. If we don't like the outcome we have no one to blame but ourselves. And reasonable people understand that life is full of compromises. (Something the East has not come to terms with. Not in the past and not now.)

So try to look in the mirror and at your fellow pilots wearing the East uniform before blaming the rest of the world for you plight and believing it will be any different if the name of the union changes.

Leadership comes from the top. Now I've been in ALPA only since 1975, but I remember when Langhorne Bond was proposing to subject pilots to criminal penalties (including imprisonment) for violations. Then ALPA President J.J. O'Donnell (for my money, the last genuine alpa president) bought a hotel for a night, invited the membership down for a "gathering" followed by everyone picketing the White House" We (me and a friend) went down, had a ball, and picketed the next day. It worked.... O'Donnell was screaming in front of the cameras and shortly thereafter Bond was histoire. I can fully imagine what he would have done if someone even mentioned the word pension. He would have shut the country down the next DAY.
There's an old saying I fully subscribe to: don't be a rep unless you're willing to go to jail. JJ would have went in the blink of an eye. Think Crater would?

 

[sharktooth]

And US pilots scabbed and made a secret deal with the company to cross the IAM Picket Line in 1992, Pot Meet Kettle.

I can't believe US hired such people.

Your own IAM asked ALPA not to support their own actions. Despite that, a group of us did anyway, because we believe. Get over it.

 

[nostradamus]

And US pilots scabbed and made a secret deal with the company to cross the IAM Picket Line in 1992, Pot Meet Kettle.

Please provide links to your accusations sir.

 

[700UW]

If you were there in 92, you would know.

ALPA made a deal that every pilot would get paid regardless if they flew or not.

US Grounded the entire, DC9, MD80, F100, F28 and 737-200 yet every pilot got paid, hmm, something the company did not have to do since it was caused by a strike.

Pilots cleaned planes, performing struck work, SCABS!!!!

That is why ALPA whined to Seth about our buttons we wore when we came back to work, "Thanks for Nothing ALPA!"

At least the AFA had to be ordered by a Judge to go back to work.

Read this

NYT

 

[sharktooth]

Pilots cleaned planes, performing struck work, SCABS!!!!

Wrong! and how could pilot perform "struck work" as none exercised replacement work. In fact, little boy, very few, if any, actually went to work against the IAM.

You may be a liar, sir.

 

[nostradamus]

If you were there in 92, you would know.

ALPA made a deal that every pilot would get paid regardless if they flew or not.

US Grounded the entire, DC9, MD80, F100, F28 and 737-200 yet every pilot got paid, hmm, something the company did not have to do since it was caused by a strike.

Pilots cleaned planes, performing struck work, SCABS!!!!

That is why ALPA whined to Seth about our buttons we wore when we came back to work, "Thanks for Nothing ALPA!"

At least the AFA had to be ordered by a Judge to go back to work.

I flew then and received pay and cashed the check. Now tell us how you supported the pilots over the years during their labor negotiations.

Name just one please. When I say that I flew I actually deadheaded home and enjoyed two weeks off, I did not clean planes but had young kids and wiped a few asses and enjoyed the bonding.

 

[GuntherA320]

If you were there in 92, you would know.

ALPA made a deal that every pilot would get paid regardless if they flew or not.

US Grounded the entire, DC9, MD80, F100, F28 and 737-200 yet every pilot got paid, hmm, something the company did not have to do since it was caused by a strike.

Pilots cleaned planes, performing struck work, SCABS!!!!

That is why ALPA whined to Seth about our buttons we wore when we came back to work, "Thanks for Nothing ALPA!"

At least the AFA had to be ordered by a Judge to go back to work.

Read this

NYT

That's rich rich,

I remember being there back then. Are you saying the company reached an agreement to pay pilots to clean airplanes? We can't even get our pilots to clean up their own mess out of the cockpit these days. I know for a fact that none of them turned a wrench which is what the IAM strike was about back in 92. The cleaners were just along for the ride. I also remember most of the mechanics wanted to become a seperate union from us "lowly" utility workers. (AMFA I believe is what they wanted to become) It didn't succeed, but I know they really, really didn't like us very much. I remember you being the second shift shop steward for Utility. You had a lot in common with the ALPA reps that we are working to get rid of right now. I remember that when there was any real work to be done there was majically some union work that needed to be taken care of. I never saw you clean anything bigger than an F28 over there on A concourse. You know i'm just kidding. You were one of the hardest workers we had. (cough cough)

 

[Phoenix]

January 31, 2008

Captain Jack
Chairman
US Airways Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association

Captain John
Chairman
America West Master Executive Council


Dear John and Jack:

I am writing to thank you both for your support, and that of your fellow officers, for continuing to provide to all US Airways pilots the benefits of ALPA representation. Thank you, John, for the America West MEC resolution passed several weeks ago expressing that support. Jack, thank you for the recent letter from you and your fellow US Airways MEC officers, Kim Allen Snider and Mike D’Angelo.

As the letter from the US Airways MEC officers stated, no elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member of principle would try to serve two unions. I agree with you that any ALPA pilot who believes that retaining ALPA is not in their best interest should not remain as an elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member. For ALPA LECs, representatives, or committee members to support another union not only represents acting contrary to the best interests of the Association, it is improper and dishonest.

As I have stated before, the Air Line Pilots Association is fully committed to supporting your efforts with all the resources, both technical and financial, that are necessary for the steering committee members to oversee the development of a comprehensive contract proposal for the joint negotiations–a proposal that advances the issues of both pilot groups, including seniority implementation issues, pay, work rules, benefits, and career security.

We are prepared to confront USAPA’s threat to undercut the efforts of the US Airways pilots and their international union to address the important issues facing all US Airways pilots. All ALPA pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots to assist you in accomplishing your goals. All US Airways pilot representatives, elected and appointed, should do the same. We cannot allow pilots to pose as ALPA representatives while promoting USAPA’s interests by attempting to undermine your efforts to find solutions for your pilots. Those with ulterior motives–who seek the failure of your work in order to advance another agenda–must be called out and held accountable. Under the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, I have a responsibility to not allow ALPA’s resources and representational status to be misused in such a manner.

Consistent with these responsibilities, I will be personally calling the elected representatives from each of your airlines to discuss this issue and to underscore the importance of their public support for our union–the pilots’ union–at this critical time.

Please be assured that I will take all appropriate action to ensure that our pilots’ resources and ALPA representational status are not improperly utilized against our pilots’ own union.

In solidarity,

Captain John
ALPA President

There seems to be a disagreement between the President of ALPA and many members of ALPA about the obligations of elected representatives. Many members maintain that the elected representatives serve at the pleasure of the electorate and serve for the electorate, not the "union", whatever is meant by "union".

The standard by which a pilot representative would be found guilty of not fulfilling his/her duties as an elected representative would be his/her failure to serve their fellow pilots according to the Constitution and Bylaws (C&B).

As an example, failing to allow a recall, or failure to ensure those responsible to allow a recall do so in a timely manner, would be one such failure of duty to follow and enforce the C&B. In contrast, quickly assembling and conducting an informational meeting in CLT hosted by the most senior of officers in ALPA is not a constitutional requirement, thus failure to do so would not raise questions of failure to serve.

 

[nostradamus]

January 31, 2008

Captain Jack
Chairman
US Airways Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association

Captain John
Chairman
America West Master Executive Council


Dear John and Jack:

I am writing to thank you both for your support, and that of your fellow officers, for continuing to provide to all US Airways pilots the benefits of ALPA representation. Thank you, John, for the America West MEC resolution passed several weeks ago expressing that support. Jack, thank you for the recent letter from you and your fellow US Airways MEC officers, Kim Allen Snider and Mike D’Angelo.

As the letter from the US Airways MEC officers stated, no elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member of principle would try to serve two unions. I agree with you that any ALPA pilot who believes that retaining ALPA is not in their best interest should not remain as an elected ALPA representative or ALPA committee member. For ALPA LECs, representatives, or committee members to support another union not only represents acting contrary to the best interests of the Association, it is improper and dishonest.

As I have stated before, the Air Line Pilots Association is fully committed to supporting your efforts with all the resources, both technical and financial, that are necessary for the steering committee members to oversee the development of a comprehensive contract proposal for the joint negotiations–a proposal that advances the issues of both pilot groups, including seniority implementation issues, pay, work rules, benefits, and career security.

We are prepared to confront USAPA’s threat to undercut the efforts of the US Airways pilots and their international union to address the important issues facing all US Airways pilots. All ALPA pilots are committed to standing with our fellow US Airways pilots to assist you in accomplishing your goals. All US Airways pilot representatives, elected and appointed, should do the same. We cannot allow pilots to pose as ALPA representatives while promoting USAPA’s interests by attempting to undermine your efforts to find solutions for your pilots. Those with ulterior motives–who seek the failure of your work in order to advance another agenda–must be called out and held accountable. Under the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws, I have a responsibility to not allow ALPA’s resources and representational status to be misused in such a manner.

Consistent with these responsibilities, I will be personally calling the elected representatives from each of your airlines to discuss this issue and to underscore the importance of their public support for our union–the pilots’ union–at this critical time.

Please be assured that I will take all appropriate action to ensure that our pilots’ resources and ALPA representational status are not improperly utilized against our pilots’ own union.

In solidarity,

Captain John
ALPA President


Nostradamus translation,

Lions and tigers and bears, Oh MY!!!!!!