ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[prechilill]

But again while this is all interesting conjecture, the real issue is which CBA constitution and bylaw is better and which group do the most pilots trust to actually follow it?

USAPA has shown they cannot even follow a simple transition agreement. Perhaps you should try another thought to make your point...

 

[Phoenix]

Praters latest letter appears to threaten to remove pilots in representational positions that he deems are not towing the ALPA line. I appreciate that he indicated he will be calling them to evidently confirm their allegiance.

While he is at it perhaps he could trouble himself to tell the CLT pilots to quit stalling the LEC meeting to avoid a recall vote according to the constitution and bylaws and in opposition of the will of the CLT pilots. After all the reps serve at the pleasure of the electorate and the electorate has demanded a recall.

Or am I confused. Is it the position of ALPA that only the President can discern who is fit to remain in office? Perhaps the bylaws policy that establishes the right of members to conduct a recall is only for show too? :angry:

If ALPA will treat the members this way when they are ostensibly attempting to win a representational election, I can only imagine the "love" they have in store for the obsequious who would vote them to remain.

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA has shown they cannot even follow a simple transition agreement. Perhaps you should try another thought to make your point...

Good sir,

Perhaps you could cite the portion of the TA that you are referring to? Accompanied by the statement from USAPA explaining that they won't adhere to it?

Your friend, Phoenix

 

[prechilill]

Good sir,

Perhaps you could cite the portion of the TA that you are referring to? Accompanied by the statement from USAPA explaining that they won't adhere to it?

Your friend, Phoenix

Ah yes, I figured the "please cite where USAPA has not nor will not follow the transition agreement" would be the canned response. How about instead you cite where USAPA stated they will honor the transition agreement. We already know they refuse to accept the binding arbiytration decision which is a product of the transition agreement, but since you would like to argue the higher moral ground I would like you or any of your fellow USAPA disciples to state whether USAPA will follow the transition agreement between East and West.

 

[ClueByFour]

Unfortunately no one in ALPA national or AWA ALPA has supported the East pilots receiving pay parity. To suggest altruism now just doesn't hold much water while continuing to actively oppose parity as a precondition to negotiations. The fact is that ALPA of its own doing has split the group and the only way a joint contract can be passed is over the veto of the other side.

Gad, the USAPA folks at least have staffed the propaganda committee.

East sues west. East threatens to live under LOA 93 forever. East yanks JNC reps. East then demands pay parity.

West, with the moral high ground, seems a bit reluctant. Go figure.

As for the veto of the other side, that little hurdle will remain regardless of what happens after the vote. USAPA inherits the transition agreement. Any joint contract must be ratified by both sides. In the absence of some degree of reasonable integration (and DOH/LOS is not the least bit reasonable, with or without restrictions), the West guys will probably choose to remain status quo.

 

[sharktooth]

You assume that because we as a group are immoral and unethical they are too.

Stealing the jobs the West brought to the merger is not a principle worth fighting for.

No, where do you get that the east wants to "steal" any west job?

Please point out where this is so.

 

[sharktooth]

Okay, I'm game. As soon as a better union comes along I shall vote for them.

How would you define "better"? So, how many months after USAPA represents US and does better than ALPA will you wait? You just cited a non sequitur.

AA would've made it so. TWA never exited Chap 11. They eventually converted to Chap 7 long after the sale closing.

So, the TWA guys saved the assets for the creditors by acquiesing to vague threats. Ok.

TWA liquidated well after the transition was complete, cleaning up the debris through ch 7 that did not get rolled into the merger. How does that conflict with what I said?

Actually, the Section 1113 filing that TWA did was unprecedented for an airline bankruptcy. Therefore there were more opinions than facts. I'll say again, even if our MEC had decided to fight I don't think the outcome would've been any different.

Point is, you guys didn't even try, due to "advice" from your franchisor, ALPA? You are giving them potential excuses without even knowing probable outcome. Do you know about the "Heavens Gate" dudes in Rancho Santa Fe?

If you wish to believe USAirways could've exited bankruptcy with the pensions intact I guess I couldn't even convince you the sky is blue. I hope whatever shade you see is pretty.

Point is, no one tried. No actuaries were used to fact check the data from the company, no options were explored and no negotiating took place. ALPA Natl accepted data without any reassurance of veracity (eyewitnesses), fired attorneys yelling and screaming that there were other options (eyewitnesses) and directed the US MEC down the current path (self-evident). There are now lawsuits (the company has made offers to go away) involving lying about the data as well as complicity between ALPA Natl and the company on imposing what may well have been lies to the US pilots.

At the very least, the pension could have been frozen.

Side note: bonuses were paid out to management totaling more than the pension liability that supposedly existed that year. What is the color of your sky these days?

 

[sharktooth]

Praters latest letter appears to threaten to remove pilots in representational positions that he deems are not towing the ALPA line. I appreciate that he indicated he will be calling them to evidently confirm their allegiance.

While he is at it perhaps he could trouble himself to tell the CLT pilots to quit stalling the LEC meeting to avoid a recall vote according to the constitution and bylaws and in opposition of the will of the CLT pilots. After all the reps serve at the pleasure of the electorate and the electorate has demanded a recall.

Or am I confused. Is it the position of ALPA that only the President can discern who is fit to remain in office? Perhaps the bylaws policy that establishes the right of members to conduct a recall is only for show too? :angry:

If ALPA will treat the members this way when they are ostensibly attempting to win a representational election, I can only imagine the "love" they have in store for the obsequious who would vote them to remain.

Excellent sir!

The loyalty test for local reps and committee members. Next up? Loyalty tests for line pilots because not just your dues, but your tutu, belongs to ALPA Natl. It is like a gang, blackmailing a shop-owner for "protection money". Next thing you know, it is your first born or daughter to "prove loyalty". Great, "professional" group you got there, guido.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Or maybe, just maybe it is inherent in the culture of East pilots. You keep saying ALPA this and ALPA that, and even though it is your own East pilots, you blame ALPA national. Why not just replace the MEC reps if, "without fail" things got worse and worse over the years. Did YOU ever try to get involved and change anything form the inside? Did you ever run for an office and effect a change from within. Or were you content to sit on the outside of the process and complain when things didn't go the way you want?

Yes, yes... I've heard all the talk about not having a vote and ALPA corruption. Say what you will, but it is still your own pilots who are responsible and should be held accountable. It is a democratic process. Did any of us get to vote on whether or not to go to war in Iraq? Of course not. We have an elected government with checks and balances and the Commander in Chief sent us to war. Do we now go and blame the EU or NATO or the UN? It's real easy to sit back with your mouth shut and go along for the ride when things are going your way, only to scream and yell when you are not happy with the result. USAPA will be no different in the long run because it will still be run by the East pilots, just like your ALPA MEC. The ONLY difference is that you hope it will allow you to walk away from a past mistake and get a do-over with respect to the Nicolau award. Everything else in your argument is simply white noise.

You see, these "problems" you refer to that are "inherent" in ALPA (your words) do not exist at other properties. Sure there are always people who are not 100% satisfied. You can't please everyone all the time. But when that happens, we get involved, voice our concerns, and come up with common goals. And sometimes the leadership must go to make room for new thinking. (Just like what has occurred at UA with our new Master Chairman and the MEC shakeup.) But throughout the process we stay involved, stay connected, and control our own destiny. ALPA national didn't force ESOP on us. ALPA national didn't force 2 rounds of concessions on us. ALPA national didn't give up our pensions. ALPA national didn't come up with the Convertible Note and the GAP 1 & GAP 2 allocation process that many were not happy about. ALPA national is not responsible for our unity either. Those things fall squarely at our feet as UA pilots. If we don't like the outcome we have no one to blame but ourselves. And reasonable people understand that life is full of compromises. (Something the East has not come to terms with. Not in the past and not now.)

So try to look in the mirror and at your fellow pilots wearing the East uniform before blaming the rest of the world for you plight and believing it will be any different if the name of the union changes.

I agree with you 90%. However, the promises BOTH of our MEC's subjected us to have given neither any manevering room. None the less, ALPA merger policy is the straw that has literally broke the camels back, unfortunately. In short, the ONLY solution now, for us anyway, is to leave ALPA to repair a situation that will ultimately affect you at United. You're right about the apathy. It was very prevalent two years ago. Not any more.

However, having said that, isn't it OUR choice to choose ALPA or USAPA or even someone else? Maybe ALPA isn't serving the interest as a whole and we need to do something different. Don't you agree? The same COULD eventually apply to United as well, given the circumstances.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The west pilot group is interested in the east's needs. The bottom line is, we see the real objective and that is a decent contract. Our obstacle, Doug Parker. As long as ALPA is on the property there is an element of neutrality between east and west- common ground which we can work from together through the steering committee. Vote in USAPA with their proposed ruthless raping of our merger committees' work and stomping on any career expectations of west pilots and the east will never see anything outside of LOA93. The west pilot group will enforce Nicolau through the legal process at the new union's expense regardless of how it affects the pilot group as a whole. The law is clearly against USAPA in rewriting seniority lists and ignoring arbitrated awards.

BRING IT ON!

 

[exB717Flyer]

I can accept that to speculate about the result is just that, since they didn't choose to fight it but I completely reject the idea that the MEC had to agree to the abandonment of the membership seniority without any input from the membership.

You still just don't get it: we agreed with our MEC!! They told us the facts they were presented with and we trusted their decision. Putting it out to vote would've been interpreted by the judge as a delaying tactic. What a shame that you guys can't trust your MEC. Remember the transcripts!!

www.usapa.org

 

[nostradamus]

The west pilot group is interested in the east's needs. The bottom line is, we see the real objective and that is a decent contract. Our obstacle, Doug Parker. As long as ALPA is on the property there is an element of neutrality between east and west- common ground which we can work from together through the steering committee.

The bottom line is merger or transaction in the future. AWA pilots and ALPA are aware of this. AWA likes to suspiciously worry about pay, benefits and questing character, when for the last twenty years plus they scabbed, ran drugs, flew airplanes drunk and were the paid the least in the industry. They know a merger, partial sale, transaction is imminent.

 

[nostradamus]

You still just don't get it: we agreed with our MEC!! They told us the facts they were presented with and we trusted their decision. Putting it out to vote would've been interpreted by the judge as a delaying tactic. What a shame that you guys can't trust your MEC. Remember the transcripts!!

Mr barely three year seniority, your alpa attorney advised your former TWA pilots to trust them. Your post prior to NIC fevor.


exB717Flyer
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Posted on: May 11 2005, 10:18 AM


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QUOTE(Winglet @ May 9 2005, 03:38 AM)
I suppose that could be the case if US Air employees, like TWA employees, sign-away their contractural rights in order to facilitate the deal.
*

Funny how this urban legend keeps resurfacing. The saying "History is written by the victors" comes to mind. The TWA MEC gave up our successorship clauses under threat of abrogation of our entire contract. Carty and the judge would've made the sale go through regardless and didn't need any "facilitation" from the TWA employees. The Section 1113 bankruptcy proceedings were unprecedented and our MEC under duress -- it seemed like the right thing to do at the time especially since our ALPA-supplied attorney adviced us to do it.

BTW I've just finished my first year at AWA so I'm a very interested party in how this all goes down.

 

[nostradamus]

Careful oh great progNOSticator... Somehow I suspect these folks you quote are the very scabs that ALPA let back in the union. But then I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda....

Laughable!!!!

Your AWA pilots scabbed with United pilots in Australia during the Ansett job action, but I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda......

 

[Phoenix]

You still just don't get it: we agreed with our MEC!!

To what do you point to corroborate your opinion?