AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[BoeingBoy]

Hey Jim, just because its MIT doesn't necessarily mean the numbers work correctly.

It's not MIT's numbers - it's the airline's numbers, submitted to the BTS. MIT has just done the aggregating and calculations - the same aggregating and calculations you or I could do given the computing power, time, and inclination. In fact, I've said the same thing as the MIT site says - despite LOA 93's lower pay rates, East pilots aren't automatically the lower cost pilot group.

Yes, there are many measures of productivity. However, the claim (or at least implication) is regularly made that East pilots cost less primarily because the LOA 93 payrates are less for equal equipment - that's dollars, not ASM's per employee, revenue per employee, or any other measure. Of course, if you'd spent more time looking at the data instead of trying to refute it you'd have seen that East is less productive than West also (although admittedly due to factors such stage length, primary area of operation, etc)

Pilots are paid per block hour (either actual or scheduled block hour). Other compensation (benefits over and above wages) are either wage driven (DC pension contributions, for example) or the same regardless of hourly wage (medical costs, for example, although the older East group probably has higher medical costs although the data doesn't break it down that finely). Neither the East nor West contract provides for compensation differences based on the seating capacity of a given aircraft type. Neither contract specifies pay rates based on stage length. Neither contract specifies pay rates based on ASM's per flight/hour/etc.

In short, the airline's pilot cost data, submitted to the BTS, whether aggregated to block hour cost by MIT or an individual, is the best and only data available for relative pilot group cost for a given fleet type (as opposed to contract cost) outside of US' own figures (which aren't publicly available).

If you want to contest MIT's calculations or results, have at it - the same data they used is available to everyone free of charge on the internet. I know that East pilot costs being basically equal with West despite the lower pay rates of LOA 93 is an unpopular reality to some - it interferes with the theory that East pilots will "automatically" get most new flying. But unpopular realities are....well....still realities.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I'd think they'd put them where they make money, not just where the costs are less.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE
November 8, 2007



This is Arnie Gentile with a US Airways MEC update for Thursday, November 8th, with two new items.



Item 1. The November 9th and 10th meetings of the AAA and AWA MECs, called by ALPA President Captain John Prater, have been cancelled. The America West MEC had convened a special MEC meeting in PHX this week and decided not to participate at the November 9th and 10th meetings.

Interesting

 

[EastUS]

Interesting

Indded. So much for the oft touted west position of getting some JNC instantly hammered out...and the inability to do so resting on the shoulders of the east contingent.....Not that I much care about Alpo's schlepping about anymore.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Back to the cost comparison. How historical is the data 2006? Won't the East new hires and retirements change the equation significantly by the middle of next year?

 

[ableoneable]

I'd think they'd put them where they make money, not just where the costs are less.

As usual you do not grasp the situation.

The aircraft basing and routing decisions are not dependent on which group will do the flying.

For instance the aircraft can be assigned routings out of CLT, PHL etc. but still be manned by west crews. This can be done through TDY assingnments, by allowing west pilots to bid an east base, deadheading crew members on the first and last legs, or designing the pairings with an originating and terminating leg out of a west station.

Marketing will determine where the aircraft are flown and operations will decide who will operate them.

Deleted by moderator....no need to talk down to another member in that manner.

 

[nostradamus]

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
-- Mahatma Gandhi.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

As usual you do not grasp the situation.

The aircraft basing and routing decisions are not dependent on which group will do the flying.

For instance the aircraft can be assigned routings out of CLT, PHL etc. but still be manned by west crews. This can be done through TDY assingnments, by allowing west pilots to bid an east base, deadheading crew members on the first and last legs, or designing the pairings with an originating and terminating leg out of a west station.

Marketing will determine where the aircraft are flown and operations will decide who will operate them.

Why don't you get educated so you can stop embarrasing yourself.

Able,
You really need to call EAP to get your anger under control. They can hook you up with a good psychiatrist. Until you work out your issues I'm ignoring you.

Don't bother replying, I won't see it. Please add me to your ignore list, as well. I don't care to talk to, or be the subject of talk from, people with as few interpersonal communication skills as you have.

 

[700UW]

West pilots cant fly East planes and vice versa.

 

[ableoneable]

Able,
You really need to call EAP to get your anger under control. They can hook you up with a good psychiatrist. Until you work out your issues I'm ignoring you.

Don't bother replying, I won't see it. Please add me to your ignore list, as well. I don't care to talk to, or be the subject of talk from, people with as few interpersonal communication skills as you have.

My anger under control? What makes you think that I am anything but dispasionate? The fact that you believe me to be angry belies your true feelings.

As far as your criticisms of my interpersonal communication skills; Written communications are not interpersonal communications. You are just using terms that you don't understand in an attempt to appear intellegent.

Furthermore you never do anything but attack me personally and have never been able to address any of my arguements.

I am not angry at you in any way. I just don't think you are very bright.

 

[ableoneable]

West pilots cant fly East planes and vice versa.

The new 321s are not east's or west's...yet. The jury is out until delivery.

BTW; Jim, do you know which engine has been ordered on the new equipment, CFM or IAE?

 

[end_of_alpa]

SkyWest Pilots Vote Against ALPA

Nothing on the ALPA website. I guess they need to keep it QUIET!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071107/skywest_union.html?.v=1

 

[EastUS]

My anger under control? What makes you think that I am anything but dispasionate? The fact that you believe me to be angry belies your true feelings.

As far as your criticisms of my interpersonal communication skills; Written communications are not interpersonal communications. You are just using terms that you don't understand in an attempt to appear intellegent.

Furthermore you never do anything but attack me personally and have never been able to address any of my arguements.

I am not angry at you in any way. I just don't think you are very bright.

"As far as your criticisms of my interpersonal communication skills; Written communications are not interpersonal communications. You are just using terms that you don't understand in an attempt to appear intellegent."

Hmmm..seems to be little to support your "argument" that written correspondence cannot be considered as interpersonal communication.

From Webster's:

Interpersonal
Adjective
1. Occurring among or involving several people.

Communication
Noun
1. The activity of communicating.

2. Something that is communicated between people or groups.

3. A connection allowing access between persons or places; "how many lines of communication can there be among four people?"; "a secret passageway provided communication between the two rooms".


"You are just using terms that you don't understand in an attempt to appear intellegent."

"I am not angry at you in any way. I just don't think you are very bright"

PS: We all make typos, but "intellegent" actually has two I's in it..the better to see you with.

 

[EastUS]

SkyWest Pilots Vote Against ALPA

Nothing on the ALPA website. I guess they need to keep it QUIET!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071107/skywest_union.html?.v=1

Interesting. 65% of those folks pretty much just voted that having NO union was preferable to Alpo's enlightened leadership.

 

[N924PS]

Interesting. 65% of those folks pretty much just voted that having NO union was preferable to Alpo's enlightened leadership.

Yes that's true. Because they were convinced as a group, that what they had on the property is preferable to ALPA.

I have read all the FAQ's on the USAPA website, read the postings from "The Other Side" on the AAA Web board, and monitored the posts from the USAPA supporters on this forum.

At this point, USAPA has not made a compelling argument that would cause me to vote out ALPA and replace it with USAPA. For a lot of reasons. The principals have not, as yet, convinced me that USAPA can repesent the individual pilot or the entire pilot group at large successfully.

Also, while beating the "box" with 3000 cards, can you assure me that each of the submitters will actually vote ALPA off the property? Many cards were submitted solely to rattle Prater's cage, and those individuals will not vote for USAPA.

While many East pilots favor USAPA, there may be just as many that wish to keep ALPA as their representative union. And there are plenty of fence sitters that are undecided at this time.

It's somewhat ironic that ALPA is so reviled by "The Other Side" but yet allow them unfettered access to the ALPA Webboard to promote themselves.