ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[end_of_alpa]

This is a reply to a forum post in the last thread by tiger 1050.

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...st&p=567813

Tiger said:

It has been "Us" since may 19th 2005... The NMB has only decided whether or not we vote as a combined group in the upcoming election.

Yes it HAS! We have'nt gotten very far, have we.

Phoenix said:

If ALPA is retained in the election then the strong division will remain since either side can veto a "solution" that they don't like. It just continues to be a standoff.

True statement. The transition agreement doesn't keep us separated....ALPA merger policy requires it.

Tiger said:

Or say USAPA! Either way you'll find that strong division will exist and the west will continue to vote no on any TA that alters the Nic. Don't believe that the Transition Agreement magically disappears just because USAPA is voted in...

You may vote NO, but there will be ONE combined vote, just like it will be for the NMB representation election. That IS what your voting for. Who's position are you taking. ALPA or USAPA.

Phoenix said:

If USAPA is elected then "we" are one and we will all work together for the best contract that we can vote on. And since it will be a big happy family then the moderates from both sides will naturally come together and outnumber the extremists on both sides, thus resulting in a solution being possible. We all vote it down together or we all vote it up together.

Most likely the more logical of the options.

Tiger said:

I don't think that is very likely...

We'll just have to see, then.

 

[Tiger 1050]

From the Continental Pilots Save Contract 2008 web site, very insightful information.

"Gentlemen:

Thank You for visiting our company website, we would be pleased to add a link to yours in the near future. Your quest to provide your members with accurate, timely, and useful information is commendable. We have consulted with members from USAPA, a group of USAIRWAYS Pilots that have filed for a representation election with the NMB to replace ALPA as their CBA. “It appears likely that ALPA is about to be “VOTED OFF THE ISLAND “at US Airways! Included is the link to the USAPA website you may find their information regarding ALPA’s failure at US Airways troubling and truly enlightening. http://1.usairlinepilots.org/default2.htm"


Continental pilots non alpa web site, they are not happy with "brother" praters alpa

Careful oh great progNOSticator... Somehow I suspect these folks you quote are the very scabs that ALPA let back in the union. But then I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda....

Laughable!!!!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Careful oh great progNOSticator... Somehow I suspect these folks you quote are the very scabs that ALPA let back in the union. But then I guess that's okay with you this time 'cause they conform to your agenda....

Laughable!!!!

You're not referring to Pat Burke (former NY Air) and John Prater, are you?

 

[Piedmont1984]

ALPA, John Prater, George Nicolau, the ACPC and about 1800 AWA pilots want DOH to dissappear. They all want DOH to be DOA, and LOS to be SOL. They would like nothing better than to relegate DOH to a footnote in ALPA history.

Until, that is, some years from now when the AWA group builds up their own LOS investment - and then they too will decide to value and protect that investment. But by then it will be too late - should they prevail. By then the concept of LOS or DOH will have vanished from merger methodology and lexicon - like the story of the peanut butter jars for those who have heard it.

From there it will not be a big step for someone - say management - to insist that DOH also be removed from arranging seniority in-house. The execs will drool over the idea that pilot seniority be determined by who has the brownest nose.

Don't think it can happen? In the meantime, the principle of DOH is a just cause and worthy of the fight we are engaged in. ALPA et al. may prevail in the end. I have no illusions. So to ALPA and friends I say you can have my 24 years. All you need to do is come and take it from me.

 

[767jetz]

So..I smiled, cheered up, and sure enough....without fail.....things got worse :angry: Perhaps it's something inherent in the core culture of Alpa "lifers".....

Or maybe, just maybe it is inherent in the culture of East pilots. You keep saying ALPA this and ALPA that, and even though it is your own East pilots, you blame ALPA national. Why not just replace the MEC reps if, "without fail" things got worse and worse over the years. Did YOU ever try to get involved and change anything form the inside? Did you ever run for an office and effect a change from within. Or were you content to sit on the outside of the process and complain when things didn't go the way you want?

Yes, yes... I've heard all the talk about not having a vote and ALPA corruption. Say what you will, but it is still your own pilots who are responsible and should be held accountable. It is a democratic process. Did any of us get to vote on whether or not to go to war in Iraq? Of course not. We have an elected government with checks and balances and the Commander in Chief sent us to war. Do we now go and blame the EU or NATO or the UN? It's real easy to sit back with your mouth shut and go along for the ride when things are going your way, only to scream and yell when you are not happy with the result. USAPA will be no different in the long run because it will still be run by the East pilots, just like your ALPA MEC. The ONLY difference is that you hope it will allow you to walk away from a past mistake and get a do-over with respect to the Nicolau award. Everything else in your argument is simply white noise.

You see, these "problems" you refer to that are "inherent" in ALPA (your words) do not exist at other properties. Sure there are always people who are not 100% satisfied. You can't please everyone all the time. But when that happens, we get involved, voice our concerns, and come up with common goals. And sometimes the leadership must go to make room for new thinking. (Just like what has occurred at UA with our new Master Chairman and the MEC shakeup.) But throughout the process we stay involved, stay connected, and control our own destiny. ALPA national didn't force ESOP on us. ALPA national didn't force 2 rounds of concessions on us. ALPA national didn't give up our pensions. ALPA national didn't come up with the Convertible Note and the GAP 1 & GAP 2 allocation process that many were not happy about. ALPA national is not responsible for our unity either. Those things fall squarely at our feet as UA pilots. If we don't like the outcome we have no one to blame but ourselves. And reasonable people understand that life is full of compromises. (Something the East has not come to terms with. Not in the past and not now.)

So try to look in the mirror and at your fellow pilots wearing the East uniform before blaming the rest of the world for you plight and believing it will be any different if the name of the union changes.

 

[traderjake]

Until, that is, some years from now when the AWA group builds up their own LOS investment - and then they too will decide to value and protect that investment.

You assume that because we as a group are immoral and unethical they are too.

Stealing the jobs the West brought to the merger is not a principle worth fighting for.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

quote tj Stealing the jobs the West brought to the merger is not a principle worth fighting for.

Do you consider placing new hire West F/O ahead of active C/O at time of merger a good principle to fight for?

Just because ALPA attorney said they were furloughed to protect his employer didn't make it so. Now it's in litigation (MDA vs ALPA) because of the lack of principle. Even with "binding" arbitration there is nothing to force me to vote yes for a contract that is not principled.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Another reason to dump ALPA.

Okay, I'm game. As soon as a better union comes along I shall vote for them.

A bk judge may NOT abrogate a contract unless the company in ch 11 asks him. He can only rule on requested changes to the contract and then those changes he approves are only in effect until the company exits ch 11.

AA would've made it so. TWA never exited Chap 11. They eventually converted to Chap 7 long after the sale closing.

I would suggest that the "judge" did not tell you that, that ALPA Natl lied about the situation.

Actually, the Section 1113 filing that TWA did was unprecedented for an airline bankruptcy. Therefore there were more opinions than facts. I'll say again, even if our MEC had decided to fight I don't think the outcome would've been any different.

EXB717Flyer
QUOTE Your pension was toast no matter which union represented you. It's what happens in Chapter 11.

Wrong again. At least you are consistently wrong.

If you wish to believe USAirways could've exited bankruptcy with the pensions intact I guess I couldn't even convince you the sky is blue. I hope whatever shade you see is pretty.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Perhaps it is more accurate to simply say all big decissions under the ALPA construct.

Oh, that's right, your new, improved, everything will be honky-dory union will put everything out to a vote -- but will somehow manage to accomplish nothing. Even your heroes, the APA, don't operate that way. Realism inevitably sets in.

 

[Piedmont1984]

767 stated:

You see, these "problems" you refer to that are "inherent" in ALPA (your words) do not exist at other properties. Sure there are always people who are not 100% satisfied. You can't please everyone all the time. But when that happens, we get involved, voice our concerns, and come up with common goals. And sometimes the leadership must go to make room for new thinking. (Just like what has occurred at UA with our new Master Chairman and the MEC shakeup.) But throughout the process we stay involved, stay connected, and control our own destiny. ALPA national didn't force ESOP on us. ALPA national didn't force 2 rounds of concessions on us. ALPA national didn't give up our pensions. ALPA national didn't come up with the Convertible Note and the GAP 1 & GAP 2 allocation process that many were not happy about. ALPA national is not responsible for our unity either. Those things fall squarely at our feet as UA pilots. If we don't like the outcome we have no one to blame but ourselves. And reasonable people understand that life is full of compromises. (Something the East has not come to terms with. Not in the past and not now.)

So try to look in the mirror and at your fellow pilots wearing the East uniform before blaming the rest of the world for you plight and believing it will be any different if the name of the union changes.
[/quote]

Lets see...the Pearl Group, I believe, was UAL's version of USAPA. Granted, the issues were different and they fell short, but not by much. What about next time, as in after AAA leaves ALPA.

OTOH you are correct that ALPA is not a problem at Southwest or American.

 

[usabusdriver]

The representational structure was changed BACK to the APA constitution and bylaws, which was similar to the ALPA MEC structure without the MEC Chiarman, VC and Sec./Tres. for one main reason: if the seniority block method was used research showed that the West pilots would have minority representation in each block and it was very conceivable that no West pilot could garner a representational position within that block.

It had nothing to do with East representing West contract grievances or vice versa because that would be covered by the people already in those respective positions most likely until a combined contract was negotiated.

End,

Please let me play devils advocate for a minute. Not to intrude on your altruistic explanation, but if I recall usapa was founded and created to change the seniority integration methodology tending more towards LOS or DOH. If DOH were implemented, west pilots would be placed in large blocks together on the lower portion of the seniority list. I seem to remember dot charts that the east merger committee published that showed the west proposal with a large block of solid blue at the bottom and the east proffered methodology with many large blocks of red interspersed with blue to be seen with contiguous blocks of red towards the bottom, thus permitting the election of west pilots to the governing board.

You have also nicely gotten into a Catch 22 with the committee structure. According to what I have heard usapa says that the old crony ALPA structure that is not responsive to the needs of the pilot group must be replaced with new blood that will get the job done. Then you say that contract grievances and subject matter experts (committee chairman) will mostly remain in their positions.

I have personally spoken with an ALPA committee chairman who says he has not been contacted by usapa concerning his committee whatsoever, and when I asked a usapa promoter in CLT about the committee structure I was assured that ALL committee positions had volunteers. The problem with a complete turnover in the committee structure is that you lose the enterprise history or memory. The why or how a process and procedure became what it is today, or what deviousness the company has tried to invoke previously in reference to the contract or pilot group in a specified area is important. Knowing who the appropriate company departments and personnel are to correct problems when they occur is also quite valuable.

Unless of course all of those ALPA volunteers who have worked over the years to help their fellow pilots through the ALPA committee structure have an epiphany and decide even though they are being castigated and thrown overboard they will do all they can to help usapa get up and running.

Just my .02 worth.

As you were, carry on.

 

[elixir]

End,

Please let me play devils advocate for a minute. Not to intrude on your altruistic explanation, but if I recall usapa was founded and created to change the seniority integration methodology tending more towards LOS or DOH. If DOH were implemented, west pilots would be placed in large blocks together on the lower portion of the seniority list. I seem to remember dot charts that the east merger committee published that showed the west proposal with a large block of solid blue at the bottom and the east proffered methodology with many large blocks of red interspersed with blue to be seen with contiguous blocks of red towards the bottom, thus permitting the election of west pilots to the governing board.

You have also nicely gotten into a Catch 22 with the committee structure. According to what I have heard usapa says that the old crony ALPA structure that is not responsive to the needs of the pilot group must be replaced with new blood that will get the job done. Then you say that contract grievances and subject matter experts (committee chairman) will mostly remain in their positions.

I have personally spoken with an ALPA committee chairman who says he has not been contacted by usapa concerning his committee whatsoever, and when I asked a usapa promoter in CLT about the committee structure I was assured that ALL committee positions had volunteers. The problem with a complete turnover in the committee structure is that you lose the enterprise history or memory. The why or how a process and procedure became what it is today, or what deviousness the company has tried to invoke previously in reference to the contract or pilot group in a specified area is important. Knowing who the appropriate company departments and personnel are to correct problems when they occur is also quite valuable.

Unless of course all of those ALPA volunteers who have worked over the years to help their fellow pilots through the ALPA committee structure have an epiphany and decide even though they are being castigated and thrown overboard they will do all they can to help usapa get up and running.

Just my .02 worth.

As you were, carry on.

 

[prechilill]

End,

Please let me play devils advocate for a minute. Not to intrude on your altruistic explanation, but if I recall usapa was founded and created to change the seniority integration methodology tending more towards LOS or DOH. If DOH were implemented, west pilots would be placed in large blocks together on the lower portion of the seniority list. I seem to remember dot charts that the east merger committee published that showed the west proposal with a large block of solid blue at the bottom and the east proffered methodology with many large blocks of red interspersed with blue to be seen with contiguous blocks of red towards the bottom, thus permitting the election of west pilots to the governing board.

You have also nicely gotten into a Catch 22 with the committee structure. According to what I have heard usapa says that the old crony ALPA structure that is not responsive to the needs of the pilot group must be replaced with new blood that will get the job done. Then you say that contract grievances and subject matter experts (committee chairman) will mostly remain in their positions.

I have personally spoken with an ALPA committee chairman who says he has not been contacted by usapa concerning his committee whatsoever, and when I asked a usapa promoter in CLT about the committee structure I was assured that ALL committee positions had volunteers. The problem with a complete turnover in the committee structure is that you lose the enterprise history or memory. The why or how a process and procedure became what it is today, or what deviousness the company has tried to invoke previously in reference to the contract or pilot group in a specified area is important. Knowing who the appropriate company departments and personnel are to correct problems when they occur is also quite valuable.

Unless of course all of those ALPA volunteers who have worked over the years to help their fellow pilots through the ALPA committee structure have an epiphany and decide even though they are being castigated and thrown overboard they will do all they can to help usapa get up and running.

Just my .02 worth.

As you were, carry on.

The west pilot group is interested in the east's needs. The bottom line is, we see the real objective and that is a decent contract. Our obstacle, Doug Parker. As long as ALPA is on the property there is an element of neutrality between east and west- common ground which we can work from together through the steering committee. Vote in USAPA with their proposed ruthless raping of our merger committees' work and stomping on any career expectations of west pilots and the east will never see anything outside of LOA93. The west pilot group will enforce Nicolau through the legal process at the new union's expense regardless of how it affects the pilot group as a whole. The law is clearly against USAPA in rewriting seniority lists and ignoring arbitrated awards.

 

[Phoenix]

I'll say again, even if our MEC had decided to fight I don't think the outcome would've been any different.

I can accept that to speculate about the result is just that, since they didn't choose to fight it but I completely reject the idea that the MEC had to agree to the abandonment of the membership seniority without any input from the membership. Who knows what would have happened if the MEC had allowed the membership to have a say.

That the leaders would desire to unilaterally decide on the abandonment of seniority or that members would find it acceptable is antithetical to unionism.

 

[Phoenix]

The west pilot group is interested in the east's needs. The bottom line is, we see the real objective and that is a decent contract.

Unfortunately no one in ALPA national or AWA ALPA has supported the East pilots receiving pay parity. To suggest altruism now just doesn't hold much water while continuing to actively oppose parity as a precondition to negotiations. The fact is that ALPA of its own doing has split the group and the only way a joint contract can be passed is over the veto of the other side.

With a single union the moderates will vote as one block and make a reasonable solution possible. Sure there will be extremes on both sides still that aren't content but a single union will be able to have results while ALPA will simply sputter.

But again while this is all interesting conjecture, the real issue is which CBA constitution and bylaw is better and which group do the most pilots trust to actually follow it?