AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[nycbusdriver]

Yes that's true. Because they were convinced as a group, that what they had on the property is preferable to ALPA.

I have read all the FAQ's on the USAPA website, read the postings from "The Other Side" on the AAA Web board, and monitored the posts from the USAPA supporters on this forum.

At this point, USAPA has not made a compelling argument that would cause me to vote out ALPA and replace it with USAPA. For a lot of reasons. The principals have not, as yet, convinced me that USAPA can repesent the individual pilot or the entire pilot group at large successfully.

Also, while beating the "box" with 3000 cards, can you assure me that each of the submitters will actually vote ALPA off the property? Many cards were submitted solely to rattle Prater's cage, and those individuals will not vote for USAPA.

While many East pilots favor USAPA, there may be just as many that wish to keep ALPA as their representative union. And there are plenty of fence sitters that are undecided at this time.

It's somewhat ironic that ALPA is so reviled by "The Other Side" but yet allow them unfettered access to the ALPA Webboard to promote themselves.

First, the access by the other side is somewhat restricted. The ALPA web nannies often remove "offending" posts, especially those that contain links to the USAPA site.

You are correct that the 3000 cards does not guarantee that those 3000 will actually vote to keep ALPA. The only thing the 3000 cards guarantee is that there will be a challenge for ALPA to meet to remain the bargaining agent. In the aftermath of the REAL election, not he 3000-card REQUEST for the election, ALPA may survive but I think they may see things differently. In addition to the USAirways challenge, they are now facing a fledgling decertification campaign at NWA. SkyWest just voted soundly to keep ALPA off their property. Colgan did the same a few months back. Time was that ALPA was perceived as the be-all and end-all of pilot unions. If nothing else, the effort by the east USAirways pilots is certainly making it very obvious to pilots everywhere that the ALPA emperor has no clothes.

 

[sharktooth]

Marketing will determine where the aircraft are flown a........

So, "oldie..." was correct, and you, "able", acknowledged it as so by making your statement above, apparently acknowledging that marketing is in charge of placing aircraft where the "yield" is, and not necessarily where costs are lowest.

I would say, sir, that it is you who does not understand the situation..... your naivete is showing.

 

[sharktooth]

At this point, USAPA has not made a compelling argument that would cause me to vote out ALPA and replace it with USAPA. For a lot of reasons. The principals have not, as yet, convinced me that USAPA can repesent the individual pilot or the entire pilot group at large successfully.

As a former rep I can state that, based on the "resources" available and utilized by ALPA, that their "advice and directions" concerns themselves first, relying mostly on local resources (LEC, etc.) to handle 99% of the problems with a vast majority of your dues going to help out themselves. This inequity provides the most opportunities, IMO, to prove that most any, more local agency, would be most cost effective in providing services vs a "National" union.

All of the "resources" cited by ALPA, aeromedical, etc. are willing and do contract out their services to other agencies, AOPA and NBAA come to mind.

The entire rationale behind a national union is to get "clout" on a nation-wide level. When is the last time you have seen that "clout" exercised?

To be convinced, you need to first know there is a problem, that the relationship is broken.

To me, it is easy to see when National has a no "B-scale" policy, yet sign-off on "Metro-Jet". Provide advisors that couch their "advise" in terms that protect the mother-ship first. Who, apparently had already decided that US was history, therefore, willy-nilly, gave away compensation in such a way to US management that the other companies had to "do likewise "to stay competitive", thereby stupidly deprecating the compensatory part of the profession, system-wide.

To me, the relationship with a "national" union has become more like a fast-food franchise is to a customer. You drive up, pay your money up front before even seeing what kind of offering they give you in return. We have out-sourced our union and therefore lost control over the outcomes.

It is past time to illuminate that particular dark corner of the profession and ensure more control over the direction the profession is taking. There is little to no reason to belong to a "national union". If ALPA starts acting on those attributes with which it has been charged, then, fine, re-evaluate the situation. Until they do, however, they are nothing more than a leech, living off and depleting the energy of, the host, the line pilot.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

..........Until they do, however, they are nothing more than a leech, living off and depleting the energy of, the host, the line pilot.

Well said!!

 

[ableoneable]

So, "oldie..." was correct, and you, "able", acknowledged it as so by making your statement above, apparently acknowledging that marketing is in charge of placing aircraft where the "yield" is, and not necessarily where costs are lowest.

I would say, sir, that it is you who does not understand the situation..... your naivete is showing.

If you take one half of a sentence out of context perhaps you can support your point.

Yes marketing will determine how best to utilize the aircraft but that will have no bearing whatsoever on which group actually flies said aircraft.

Oldies point was that the aircraft would be "placed" with a certain pilot group. As I have shown this is a vast oversimplification. If we think in terms of "placement" as it pertains to east or west the aircraft can easily be placed with the most efficient pilot group regardless of where the revenue is generated.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (sharktooth @ Nov 9 2007, 11:46 AM)
..........Until they do, however, they are nothing more than a leech, living off and depleting the energy of, the host, the line pilot.

Well said!!

And, a grossly bloated leech at that. Anyone out there truly content with making millionaires out of the top Alpo clowns at our expense? They've little claim to even "enhancing shareholder value" on any level that I can imagine. The primary difference between these clowns and management...is that we CAN get rid of them.

 

[sharktooth]

Yes marketing will determine how best to utilize the aircraft but that will have no bearing whatsoever on which group actually flies said aircraft.

and, how does marketing determine how best to utilize the aircraft? By going with the lowest cost operation or by maximizing yield?

 

[ableoneable]

and, how does marketing determine how best to utilize the aircraft? By going with the lowest cost operation or by maximizing yield?

".....but that will have no bearing whatsoever on which group actually flies said aircraft."

How can I be any more clear than that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Who, apparently had already decided that US was history, therefore, willy-nilly, gave away compensation in such a way to US management that the other companies had to "do likewise "to stay competitive", thereby stupidly deprecating the compensatory part of the profession, system-wide.

Let me see if I can decipher this logic....

ALPA, having decided that US "was history", decided to "give away compensation" to US management in order to insure that the other ALPA-represented pilots at other carriers (presumably deemed among the "not history" category) would also have to give massive concessions.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to "arrange" that US would be history (refuse concessions, strike, whatever) so that those other ALPA-represented pilots at "not history" carriers wouldn't have had to make such drastic concessions?

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

In reviewing a backlog of posts, it occured to me that most of what is offered on these AAA/HP weekly topics is just week after week of the same posters defending their respective positions ad infinitum.

It really has become quite tedious and frustrating. While the same players continue to trade barbs, I will be taking a sabbatical from these topics for a while. At least until "the cards" are presented to the NMB for action or Brother John steps down from Mount Herndon with a cram down contract for all to vote on.

Continue ranting and raving in my abscence, as I know you will.

Regards,
N924PS

A very short sabbatical.

 

[nostradamus]

Posted yesterday by

N924PS
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And you are a pilot and lawyer wannabe, who probably failed the bar a time or two and are simarly living your life vicariously on these boards.

"A little bit of knowledge is truly dangerous." You should know.
Better get back to your Cheetos and "M.A.S.H." reruns.



924BS you talked of a sabbatical and denounced trading "barbs" just a few days ago.

 

[usabusdriver]

and, how does marketing determine how best to utilize the aircraft? By going with the lowest cost operation or by maximizing yield?

Shark,

Just to clarify. Marketing does not determine what route a particular aircraft will fly. They determine the route structure, frequency, and number of seats the company will offer to sell. Yield management considers costs and utilization of aircraft in pricing the seats and this would apply to growth aircraft as well. Maintenance routing determines what route a particular aircraft will fly. Maintenance routing schedules the aircraft according to the plan marketing created. Then crew scheduling creates trips for the routing maintenance creates for the aircraft. Depending on the viability of the plan, the schedule for an individual flight or sequence of flights, or which fleet scheduled to operate the flights or sequence of flights may change. Because the network has east and west aircraft flying from all of the nodes (except LGA), all that is required is to shuffle the equipment to balance out the required flying regardless of which group would operate the aircraft. The differences between east and west are analogous to different fleet types.