ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[end_of_alpa]

Unions were not formed exclusively on the principle of favoring age over youth. Unions were formed on the belief that there is strength and leverage in the unity of the entire membership speaking as one. Otherwise management would not just favor youth (new workers at low pay) over age (older members at higher pay). They would offer jobs to the lowest bidder (regardless of age or longevity) and each employee would basically work by individual contract. Imagine if the auto manufacturing giants were able to negotiate with each worker individually. Unions were formed on the principle that every worker should be payed a livable wage and treated equally and fairly by corporations who's only purpose was to fill positions at the lowest possible cost. Longevity was a concept that materialized as a result of the unions unity, collective bargaining and lobbying for laws that govern union/employee protocol. However, as we well know, in this profession the thought of massive turmoil and consolidation was never considered in the early years. Hence the lack of a national seniority system for all pilots. Longevity became a measure within each individual group.

If you recall recent airline history (you may have been to young at the time) but age discrimination was EXTREMELY prevalent at the airline level to get hired either as a pilot OR a flight attendent (steward/stewardess back then). If you wern't hired by a major airline by thirty you wern't getting hired. Even worse for the Flight Attendants where you couldn't be married, had to be slim, youthful and attractive (whatever that is). Only when deregulating and severe transportation upheaval were these issues brought to bear at the CAB, in regulation. Companies are FAMOUS for getting rid of OLDER WORKERS because they are usually higher paid than new hired counterparts....who just happen to generally be young, single, naive and willing to work for lessin trading off for the experience....which eventually finds them back in the same boat as older workers. Old vs. young is the MAIN REASON for a labor union. If you took the time to READ the Rakestraw descision at the USAPA website, the Court descision was VERY good in explaining how labor unions WORK under RLA. Case law is a history lesson in and of itself.

If you widh to have a discussion of THIS case I would be MORE THAN happy to indulge in that arena.

However, therefore you are EXACTLY RIGHT: LONGEVITY BECAME A MEASURE WITHIN EACH INDIVIDUAL GROUP. And this is why national unions don't work. The line of demarcation is the line you stand in to get your money. And when those lines combine, without any Standard Operating Procedure, if you will, all hell breaks loose and the Companies therefore leverage to the LOWEST bidder. Why do you think Lorenzo was so successful?

I agree that the condescending pilots among us are the ones who give many the impression if elitism. Everyone puts their pants on the same way. I myself started my career "smashing bags" at JFK for United Airlines. It's amazing how differently the ramp service personal respond to me during my walkarounds when they find this out. (PS. I did not keep my DOH or LOS when I returned to UA as a pilot.)

Then you must have quit and went back.

It is not a crime to choose your representation. What many find to be criminal is the perception that changing representation is specifically in order to avoid the consequences of an agreed upon process that played out differently than one side had hoped, and then claiming "majority rules" to impose their will onto their peers. Even though I believe this strategy leads down a dead end and will not materialize from a legal perspective, the fact that it is being attempted leaves many with a lack of trust or respect for those responsible, and a sincere disappointment in the lack of inegrity.

As you pointed out, the reason for a union is to bargain COLLECTIVELY WITH A REPRESENTATIVE CHOSEN BY MAJORITY VOTE. Do you punish the population for the results their voted in (or forced vote, if communist) leadership and principles fail? Maybe we should not have had the Marshall plan and instead reinstated the Versaille Treaty after WWII to punish the Germans and Japanese again? Those people made poor descisions, one out of desperation and the other out of blind loyalty. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater makes no sense. Let me put it this way, if the majority don't want it or won't accept it, you won't get it....at least not in labor law. Arbitration or no.

Our "leadership" on both MEC's made BAD descisions, but do not expect the pilot population to AGREE with it. If you don't like the law, vote out the reps and vote in new ones that fix it. And that is what we're doing. And if you wish to skewer the MAJORITY of the group, no matter who it is, beyond a point of unacceptability, then this is what you have.

If United were to merge with US Airways and the ALPA arbitrator stapled all the United pilots, a group that is larger than us, to the bottom of the list, do YOU really believe that your group would NOT DO THE SAME? That point will, most likely, be put to the test in the next downturn. One mans labor leader is another mans scab. It's all in the perspective.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Do you really think the IAM would ever honor an AMFA picket line?

And last time I checked, no one at NW honored their line.

And here, I rest my case. Battle lines get drawn and it is ALWAYS management that controls the outcome. You perceive a win in any strike and a contract later, but ultimately management wins in the long haul because labor is disjointed and fractionalized because no fundamental code of ethics exist across those lines.

Labor doesn't seem to understand that LONG TERM CONTINUITY IN PRINCIPLES WILL STAND THE TEST OF TIME AND PROVIDE STABILITY AGAINST MANAGEMENT. In fact, if these tenats we're adhered to faithfully amongst all groups, I would venture to say that management might actually gain some modicum of respect of their "business" counterparts. But alas, we wait.

....and we vote.

 

[KTM300]

If United were to merge with US Airways and the ALPA arbitrator stapled all the United pilots, a group that is larger than us, to the bottom of the list, do YOU really believe that your group would NOT DO THE SAME? That point will, most likely, be put to the test in the next downturn. One mans labor leader is another mans scab. It's all in the perspective.

This may be the very reason that Delta may not merge with UAL.

 

[Leonidas]

If United were to merge with US Airways and the ALPA arbitrator stapled all the United pilots, a group that is larger than us, to the bottom of the list, do YOU really believe that your group would NOT DO THE SAME? That point will, most likely, be put to the test in the next downturn. One mans labor leader is another mans scab. It's all in the perspective.
[/quote]

So Usair pilots got stapled?

 

[CactusFlyr]

ALPA, John Prater, George Nicolau, the ACPC and about 1800 AWA pilots want DOH to dissappear. They all want DOH to be DOA, and LOS to be SOL. They would like nothing better than to relegate DOH to a footnote in ALPA history.

Until, that is, some years from now when the AWA group builds up their own LOS investment - and then they too will decide to value and protect that investment. But by then it will be too late - should they prevail. By then the concept of LOS or DOH will have vanished from merger methodology and lexicon - like the story of the peanut butter jars for those who have heard it.

From there it will not be a big step for someone - say management - to insist that DOH also be removed from arranging seniority in-house. The execs will drool over the idea that pilot seniority be determined by who has the brownest nose.

Don't think it can happen? In the meantime, the principle of DOH is a just cause and worthy of the fight we are engaged in. ALPA et al. may prevail in the end. I have no illusions. So to ALPA and friends I say you can have my 24 years. All you need to do is come and take it from me.

I believe personally I could handle staying in my relative position should another merger occur. It is all in the state-of-mind. I certainly will never expect to be leap-frogged by someone that was not even on the property (ie, furloughed) on the date of the transaction.

 

[end_of_alpa]

If United were to merge with US Airways and the ALPA arbitrator stapled all the United pilots, a group that is larger than us, to the bottom of the list, do YOU really believe that your group would NOT DO THE SAME? That point will, most likely, be put to the test in the next downturn. One mans labor leader is another mans scab. It's all in the perspective.


So Usair pilots got stapled?

That was not what I was saying. By inference, what would the United pilots do if they were placed in a postition that was so unaceptable to them that they wouldn't accept it, what do you think THEY would do?

 

[CactusFlyr]

It is not a crime to choose your representation. What many find to be criminal is the perception that changing representation is specifically in order to avoid the consequences of an agreed upon process that played out differently than one side had hoped, and then claiming "majority rules" to impose their will onto their peers. Even though I believe this strategy leads down a dead end and will not materialize from a legal perspective, the fact that it is being attempted leaves many with a lack of trust or respect for those responsible, and a sincere disappointment in the lack of inegrity.
[/quote]


What he said.

 

[Leonidas]

That was not what I was saying. By inference, what would the United pilots do if they were placed in a postition that was so unaceptable to them that they wouldn't accept it, what do you think THEY would do?

Let me see if they submited to binding arbitration they would probably accept it, and if they got a Nicolau type award they would be very happy indeed, but I see where you are trying to bait me, if they were not happy thay would probably do the same thing the ozark/ air wisconsin pilots did, and the outcome would be the same, just like it will be with your usapa.

 

[AWA320]

That was not what I was saying. By inference, what would the United pilots do if they were placed in a postition that was so unaceptable to them that they wouldn't accept it, what do you think THEY would do?

So your relative position was so unacceptable that you must take others positions to fill the void that only exists in east pilots minds?? I think the pilots of UAL would take responsibility for their actions and man up! something that completely escapes you east people.

Simply can not wait for the complete failure of usair...

 

[oldiebutgoody]

They should rename this thread "Same Crap, Different Week". then just close it.

 

[luvthe9]

They should rename this thread "Same Crap, Different Week". then just close it.

You are right, close it down. LESS THAN A MONTH LEFT FOR ALPO

 

[AWA320]

They should rename this thread "Same Crap, Different Week". then just close it.

That's funny true as he11 but funny none the less

 

[AAA73Pilot]

ditto

 

[nostradamus]

So your relative position was so unacceptable that you must take others positions to fill the void that only exists in east pilots minds?? I think the pilots of UAL would take responsibility for their actions and man up! something that completely escapes you east people.

Simply can not wait for the complete failure of usair...

four year wonder boy.

 

[nostradamus]

I think the pilots of UAL would take responsibility for their actions and man up! something that completely escapes you east people.

You think, or are you sure they would?