USAPA/ALPA thread of the week 5/31-6/6

[nycbusdriver]

...if you think you have a winner of a case, why would anyone of a sane mind sabotage it like this...?

And more than that, if you think you have a winner of a case, what's the holdup? I thought the westies had built up a war chest and were chomping at the bit to file suit against USAPA. What's taking so long?

We're all waiting with baited breath to see the westie federal court complaint. Personally, I can't wait to read the charges and see what insane attorney writes and submits it to the clerk.

 

[elixir]

How would YOU like to be on a jumpseat for a 4 hour flight while the captain and first officer, not talking to you of course, are discussing in a very contemptuous way you and your colleagues with many pejorative references to their pedigree? Do you think THAT is professional? Would YOU sit there for 4 hours and keep YOUR opinion to yourself while the pilots who were supposed to be operating the airplane weighed in with inflammatory, obscene invective aimed at you and your colleagues? (This actually happened on west metal PHX-PHL.)

Tell me you would just sit quietly and take it for 4 hours, keeping your opinion to yourself.

Funny you ask, NYC...I have done that very thing for the last 2 years as a J4J Captain flying for Express in the East system while living in PHX. Every time I commuted to work ( as a FUR pilot) I had to sit and listen to extreme discussions about the East....I met a few really great guys out West, so it is not fair to categorically describe them, but I usually kept quiet...respectful, thankful for the ride...and tried not to mention I was a FUR East guy. All they usually knew was that I was a Captain living West, commuting to fly in the East Express system...

Politics have no place in the J/S or cockpit....if this continues, we will lose the J/S altogether.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Funny you ask, NYC...I have done that very thing for the last 2 years as a J4J Captain flying for Express in the East system while living in PHX. Every time I commuted to work ( as a FUR pilot) I had to sit and listen to extreme discussions about the East....I met a few really great guys out West, so it is not fair to categorically describe them, but I usually kept quiet...respectful, thankful for the ride...and tried not to mention I was a FUR East guy. All they usually knew was that I was a Captain living West, commuting to fly in the East Express system...

Politics have no place in the J/S or cockpit....if this continues, we will lose the privaledge.

That's a difficult way to travel. But since they didn't know you were an east pilot, the dynamics are very different. As far as they were concerned, they weren't talking about you, their guest. You were just a set of neutral ears.

What if you had boarded that flight today as an east pilot and the cockpit crew proceeded to defame you and your colleagues in very unflattering language. Now you are aware that they are doing it specifically to get your goat. Do you sit and take it? Or do you make your opinions known, diplomatically of course?

 

[luvn737s]

How would YOU like to be on a jumpseat for a 4 hour flight while the captain and first officer, not talking to you of course, are discussing in a very contemptuous way you and your colleagues with many pejorative references to their pedigree? Do you think THAT is professional? Would YOU sit there for 4 hours and keep YOUR opinion to yourself while the pilots who were supposed to be operating the airplane weighed in with inflammatory, obscene invective aimed at you and your colleagues? (This actually happened on west metal PHX-PHL.)

Tell me you would just sit quietly and take it for 4 hours, keeping your opinion to yourself.

You are a guest, regardless of the behavior of the host. You choose to request a jumpseat. It is one of many options available to you.

 

[kubotapilot]

Pretty quick to judge, aren't you?

Re-read my post, Einstein, I said I walked into his office and he was ALREADY in a discussion over this topic with another Captain who had been denied 2 days earlier. I was there on unrelated business...

Holy crap, you guys are nuts.

And, by the way, you bet your sweet arse if I get denied a ride on a USAirways aircraft and miss a trip or a reserve shift...I'm not doing it quietly....my boss (CP) will know exactly who, when, and where....bank on it.

From what I hear, the crews responsible for leaving other employees behind will face more than just a meeting...you might ask your own CP...but, I suggest everybody start getting along in this regard.

Do what you will.

One last thought...when I was recalled, I asked immediately to be placed in the west system ( which still had 13 open slots) and was told in no uncertain terms..."NO...those positions are no longer available, they are being filled by new-hires..."...this was while the pilots were still represented by ALPA....( and this answer came from ALPA..)

It is what it is......

Like I said earlier today, this is definitely entertaining ! I know for a fact our CP's in PHL are taking the JS thing VERY seriously. Believe it or not, the current CP office in PHL is extremely line-pilot friendly.

Also found out yesterday that an east FA wearing a yellow lanyard was recently denied boarding by a west captain in LAS. He went so far as to board the other 20 some-odd NR's out of seniority. The commuting FA pleaded to the agents and captain to allow her to board. The captain exercised his authority to deny her transport for ANY reason. The FA notified her supervisor immediately. When the flight landed several hours later, it was met at the gate by management, and a deplaning head-count was taken. The count was off by quite a few numbers due to the fact that this captain decided to escort several of his "more preferred" NR's on board via the outside jetway door. Needless to say, this crew is doing the carpet dance. This captain may not need to worry about non-payment of closed shop fees soon!

 

[elixir]

You are a guest, regardless of the behavior of the host. You choose to request a jumpseat. It is one of many options available to you.

Correct....but "creating a hostile work environment" is not part of the freedoms of the "host"...if, (when I arrive in PHL after a "host" has his way with me for 4 hours) I find that I'm too zapped to fly my shift..the #### will flow downhill....count on it.
I'm only going to say this one more time, then you can call your own boss, uncovered flying that is attributed to this game being played is going to be dealt with "swiftly,and severely"....is the word on the street.

The company's position is clear, they have an airline to run....the cockpit politics will not drive the company....you may "own" the cockpit while you're in it, but the company "owns' YOU...

 

[elixir]

Like I said earlier today, this is definitely entertaining ! I know for a fact our CP's in PHL are taking the JS thing VERY seriously. Believe it or not, the current CP office in PHL is extremely line-pilot friendly.

Also found out yesterday that an east FA wearing a yellow lanyard was recently denied boarding by a west captain in LAS. He went so far as to board the other 20 some-odd NR's out of seniority. The commuting FA pleaded to the agents and captain to allow her to board. The captain exercised his authority to deny her transport for ANY reason. The FA notified her supervisor immediately. When the flight landed several hours later, it was met at the gate by management, and a deplaning head-count was taken. The count was off by quite a few numbers due to the fact that this captain decided to escort several of his "more preferred" NR's on board via the outside jetway door. Needless to say, this crew is doing the carpet dance. This captain may not need to worry about non-payment of closed shop fees soon!

Yep...I was in Y's office when this was going down...they are NOT playing around with this...at all.

Anyone who is unclear on the company's position should check out the CLT FA crew news video where Parker was confronted with this very topic....and his reaction thereto...

 

[ClueByFour]

If USAPA didn't think it was true with their evidence in hand, then why bother? Can you spell frivolous? Which if it was, well you get the point. So really, do you think USAPA would open itself up to such a counter?

Yes, I do. I believe that the Angry FO From Cranberry Club is indeed that stupid. If the phone calls and feces mailbombs were the problem, they should have turned it over to the authorities and been done with it. They don't have a prayer in hell of making a racketeering charge stick. It's a rather shortsighted way of trying to cost a few westies some cash.

Try rereading the complaint. You would clearly see that USAPA is cooperating with the authorities. There is actually more to it than that. Think about it.

Oddly enough, I've worked with Los Federales--specifically, I have had differing levels of involvement in a bunch of cases regarding, among other things, telecommunications fraud and the like that started in (get this)--the Western District of North Carolina (bad news is that most of them originated in the Asheville division, so I can't really comment about the judges in Charlotte, but the current USA and most of the AUSAs have their stuff together). Because of this, I'm reasonably certain that if they were planning on going nuts with a criminal complaint, they would have told USAPA to STFU and wait. That tells me that they are not planning on a huge, COPS-style, perp-walking bust or USAPA jumped the gun regardless of their sage advice. Maybe they thought that making any telco related crime charges stick might imply trying to convince a jury that a member of a class/craft is not permitted to call his union. None of these would surprise me all that much.

Who said anything about mitigating? USAPA still expects a lawsuit at some point. Like I said many months ago. It's planned for.

Is this brought by the same group of people who shot down their ALPA MEC's ability to negotiate, forced a "DOH or nothing" strategy at arbitration, got creamed, and are now trying to end-around binding arbitration? Solid planning, I'm sure. That does not in any way beget that such planning is either strategically or tactically sound, or even matters a damn.

Your opinion. I guess we'll see won't we?

Sure. Want to see if I go 3 for 3 on the integration front?

Really. Half of that lawsuit is/was stupid, and the other half (the SLAPP happy side) won't go anywhere. A smart person would have let these idiots out west who are doing stupid stuff bury themselves. Of course, that presupposes "smart" enters the equation at some point with USAPA.

 

[elixir]

"...let these idiots out west doing stupid stuff..."

dude, these are your guys...your previous union leaders...are you claiming their actions as stupid?

Are you paying "dues" to AWAPPA or whatever it is?

This is going to shaft you guys out west...it really is.

Win or lose, this is making the west group look like thugs....and I know some of them aren't.

really stupid.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, I do. I believe that the Angry FO From Cranberry Club is indeed that stupid. If the phone calls and feces mailbombs were the problem, they should have turned it over to the authorities and been done with it. They don't have a prayer in hell of making a racketeering charge stick. It's a rather shortsighted way of trying to cost a few westies some cash.

Well, I believe the Postal Service was notified and they have their own investigation in progress. That is entirely another matter and unrelated to the civil suit.

Oddly enough, I've worked with Los Federales--specifically, I have had differing levels of involvement in a bunch of cases regarding, among other things, telecommunications fraud and the like that started in (get this)--the Western District of North Carolina (bad news is that most of them originated in the Asheville division, so I can't really comment about the judges in Charlotte, but the current USA and most of the AUSAs have their stuff together). Because of this, I'm reasonably certain that if they were planning on going nuts with a criminal complaint, they would have told USAPA to STFU and wait. That tells me that they are not planning on a huge, COPS-style, perp-walking bust or USAPA jumped the gun regardless of their sage advice. Maybe they thought that making any telco related crime charges stick might imply trying to convince a jury that a member of a class/craft is not permitted to call his union. None of these would surprise me all that much.

Specious crap. I suppose we're all expected to be very impressed with your insider status and knowledge of the jargon.

Jurors are bright enough to see patterns in phone calls that amount to harassment and abuse rather than a necessary call to their union. Of course, these same defendants can probably all be quoted with denials that USAPA is their union at all. If they don't consider it their union, why so many calls? Your argument doesn't pass the smell test, and juries have pretty sensitive noses. Preponderance of the evidence.

Really. Half of that lawsuit is/was stupid, and the other half (the SLAPP happy side) won't go anywhere. A smart person would have let these idiots out west who are doing stupid stuff bury themselves. Of course, that presupposes "smart" enters the equation at some point with USAPA.

That presupposes that USAPA really wants to go to war with the west pilots. They don't. They simply want the harassment to stop and when, against the advice of their own counsel, the west pilots continued their campaign against USAPA after asking them to cease and desist, they were left with little other choice than to go to court. USAPA is not about letting the "stupid stuff" go on so the west pilots can "bury themselves." They have work to do and just wish to have the space in which to do it.

 

[luvn737s]

Correct....but "creating a hostile work environment" is not part of the freedoms of the "host"...if, (when I arrive in PHL after a "host" has his way with me for 4 hours) I find that I'm too zapped to fly my shift..the #### will flow downhill....count on it.
I'm only going to say this one more time, then you can call your own boss, uncovered flying that is attributed to this game being played is going to be dealt with "swiftly,and severely"....is the word on the street.

The company's position is clear, they have an airline to run....the cockpit politics will not drive the company....you may "own" the cockpit while you're in it, but the company "owns' YOU...

Word on the street is that the company can't tell you where to live, only that you have to show up on time. How you do that is up to you. No-showing for a flight regardless of the reason will be dealt with much more severely than pointing a finger at someone and saying, "bbbbut, he MADE me late!"

I'd say the best investment in your future would be to look for a home in PHL or CLT. Why put yourself through the stress of worrying about getting to work.

Last I checked, the jumpseat was referred to as a "priviledge" not a right.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

How would YOU like to be on a jumpseat for a 4 hour flight while the captain and first officer, not talking to you of course, are discussing in a very contemptuous way you and your colleagues with many pejorative references to their pedigree? Do you think THAT is professional? Would YOU sit there for 4 hours and keep YOUR opinion to yourself while the pilots who were supposed to be operating the airplane weighed in with inflammatory, obscene invective aimed at you and your colleagues? (This actually happened on west metal PHX-PHL.)

Tell me you would just sit quietly and take it for 4 hours, keeping your opinion to yourself.

This happened to an A330 check airman that commutes out of PHX.

Again, it's really ashame that some people have sunk to a low that few could have even contemplated.

If the allegations are proven true, every one of those imbeciles needs to be fired and maybe their licenses taken away by the FAA. Clearly not fit to fly.

Later,
Eye

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Word on the street is that the company can't tell you where to live, only that you have to show up on time. How you do that is up to you. No-showing for a flight regardless of the reason will be dealt with much more severely than pointing a finger at someone and saying, "bbbbut, he MADE me late!"

I'd say the best investment in your future would be to look for a home in PHL or CLT. Why put yourself through the stress of worrying about getting to work.

Last I checked, the jumpseat was referred to as a "priviledge" not a right.

luvn737s,
It's pretty easy to tell if a crew denied someone a JS that was booked. Again, you Westies seem to have an issue with electronic proof information.

Later,
Eye

 

[luvn737s]

If the allegations are proven true, every one of those imbeciles needs to be fired and maybe their licenses taken away by the FAA. Clearly not fit to fly.

Later,
Eye

Have they tried to take jetliners full of passengers on excursions through the mud? Those pilots seem rather unfit to fly.

 

[luvn737s]

luvn737s,
It's pretty easy to tell if a crew denied someone a JS that was booked. Again, you Westies seem to have an issue with electronic proof information.

Later,
Eye

Yes, but they have their crackerjack USAPA defense crew to represent their side of the story, so no worries. Oh, by the way, does USAPA have a professional standards committee, or do they just use the CP office to handle things. For that matter do they have standards of any kind?