US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[nic4us]

Sure, nic.

You guys have been so kind and generous to us, we will certainly try to get our end-of-LOA pay raises in stock so that you can participate.

Let me get an email out to my reps right now.

I was of course joking. If you get the pay increase do not under any circumstance take stock.

But if loa-93 expires, why are the reps taking the pay rates from loa-84 an also expired letter? Would not the payrates go to the original amendable contract? Or are those the rates that are being quoted?

 

[Megasnoop]

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42
Also there are a couple of e-mails from DXXX BXXXXXXX that explain the expiration of the LOA93 pay rate provision. Both of these e-mails bode well for the east!

Hate2fly, arguing with these guys is like talking to your dog about world peace. Amazing. With the current rates EXPIRING on January 1, 2010, who needs a new contract? Theyre better than anything Kirby had on the table. We'll probably know the result of that arbitration before we hear from the 9th Circuit. It is worth waiting for. Either way, we're not going to get a reasonable contract even approaching the January 1, 2010 restructed pay rates. Yeah, old Dxxx B, even when he was trying to screw us, he gave us a good paper/email trail. We know what it says, Westies can only guess what we got.

Hope you get them, West contract has a "Me Too clause". But we have already heard Kirby's resonse to the snapback.

Now we got Nic4 coming up with the "me-too" clause. It had nothing to do with pay rates. What he didnt tell you is "me too" was from their LOA 13, stock options/stock for OTHER employee groups (mechanics, FAs, rampers)who were still negotiating contracts at the time. They wanted to make sure that if OTHER employee groups got stock or options, they would get them too. Let’s see, we got our stock options in December 2005 (or was it 2006, can’t remember which anymore, too much Trans-Atlantic flying) and the west got? Zero! (I had to dig for that "me too" tidbit, but everything is in writing, if you look)

But as I pointed out, west did not reject our right to go section 6, we delayed( yet retained) our right to go section 6 in order to enter joint negotiations. When east walked out of joint negotiations after the Nic, West waited, hoping to keep ALPA, then at the eleventh hour opened section 6 with the company, secured future dates and USAPA cancelled West's section 6 negotiations.

The big shaggy dog story, Rxx. At the 11th hour, RIGHT! But once USAPA was CBA there was no more Section 6 for West to negotiate. You couldnt negotiate on your own, since you had no separate standing. You guys blew it back in June 2006, it was over back then. Even ALPA National (Mike Abrams) told both MECs that. Now your making up a story. No way we could negotiate a separate contract for you after ALPA was canned. Besides, Mcalvenna was telling us all how he was going to destroy us. You really think we were going to give him, no longer an elected official, the time of day?

 

[N924PS]

I would like to thank the obviously west pilot who sat in our JS from CLT to BWI the other day...we had a tasty discussion about things..and he wound up as speechless as you all will.

Of course, he didn't identify himself as such....in plain clothes and no ID with a glowing red lanyard...repleat with the $1000 saguaro cactus tie-tac...and all...........

Freshly back from Europe...and needing a ride: you're welcome.

Tell your friends back out West that you still get rides out East.

Well thanks for your hospitality.

Your big mistake was bringing up politics on the jumpseat at all. You simply should have asked if he had a nice flight from Europe flown your damn airplane to BWI and said a polite good-bye.

Hope you feel better venting on the poor fellow, but except for making your chest puff a bit, I'm certain your tasty discussion served no purpose whatsoever.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I was of course joking. If you get the pay increase do not under any circumstance take stock.

But if loa-93 expires, why are the reps taking the pay rates from loa-84 an also expired letter? Would not the payrates go to the original amendable contract? Or are those the rates that are being quoted?

LOA 84 does not have an expiration date. In fact, it provides for open-ended raises of 3% every year on May 1 ad infinitum. The LOA 84 rates are based on the basic contract rates, and that side letter remains in effect and fully functional until amended or discontinued by the parties involved. LOA 93 has a specific end date to the pay portion.

 

[Megasnoop]

"QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jun 7 2009, 01:00 PM)
There is no way that the east would vote for a contract with the Nicolau. No need to poll. We just accept that as fact and delay and waste time and money."

I think the east top 500 would. I talked to more than a few guys who want to hurry up while housing prices are low in Phoenix and San Diego. Lots of the PSA guys sold homes in the west and they thought they would be forever priced out of living there again. Many of them plan to bid PHX and they see the housing price fall out and the nic as their way to get back to the west coast.

Several of the top east guys do still live in CA and they are looking forward to bumping into PHX as well. One guy I know wants to live in Sun City

ALPO NO MORE, greetings from sunny Europe. I hate to disagree with someone who agrees with me on ALPA being gone, and Im not in the top 500, but I fly with them. Its all about timing Housing prices? Your kidding, not? I don’t think the top 500 are anywhere near that shallow. Do you really think theyre give up A330 and Group 1 wages, Intl flying for A320 wages with a PHX base? No, theyre all going to sit back and see how the January 2010 pay restructuring grievance turns out, assuming the company is stupid enough not to pay.

No, ALPO NO MO, the biggest shift Ive seen in the top 500 attitude came after age 60 changed to 65. That gave them the time and the patience to see this through, at least until the pay grievance is done. Granted, before age 65, I doubt if their street talk would match how they voted. Now, with a potential of an extra $1M in pay/benefits, theyre solidly back on board.

A "me, too" clause? Can you point it out?

As for Kirby, is he going to hear the grievance arbitration? I didn't know he was on the list of arbitrators.

Oh, hes' not? Then whatever he has to say about it is spin and little more.

(What did you westies expect Kirby to say to a bunch of pilots in the PHX training center? That, yes indeedy, we are going to give the east pilots their raises next January without so much as a whimper? Do you honestly think he could answer that question differently than he did?)

Of course he cant/wont point to it, NYC. Because it only dealt with “me tooâ€￾ on stock/stock options from their current LOA 13. And your right, Kirby was playing to the crowd as well as speaking in his own self-interest. But does anyone really believe that Kirby had a clue about that section of our LOA 93? Think Parker had read or been advised of that little time bomb?

NYC, Im now convinced arguing with these guys is like trying to convince Iran President Ahmadinejad that there really was a holocaust.

 

[EastUS]

What is most disturbing is that east pilots will accept a 6-8 years delay.

Feel free to become or remain as fully disturbed as you see fit. It truly matters not at all. It's just a waste of energy. Frankly; I'll be long gone from the property prior to the expiration of 6-8 years, but....I can't think of so much as a single real reason that I'd ever want to see west people permanently leapfrogging over my junior compadres during my remaining career. The west is seeking a legally enforced cram down of the nic. OK then. The east has zero real incentive not to fight against that, however long it takes, and whatever it costs. I'll certainly vote against anything that would place your 11 years ahead of people I fly with with over twice those years....period, always. I hardly believe that I'm the least bit unique in that notion. It seems only reasonable to just watch this unfold as it will. Why be any further "disturbed" about any of this? The west-east impasse is, to say the least, well established. This will play out only in due time. Patience is a virtue....

Have a good evening. Enjoy your life.

 

[cleardirect]

ALPO NO MORE, greetings from sunny Europe. I hate to disagree with someone who agrees with me on ALPA being gone, and Im not in the top 500, but I fly with them. Its all about timing Housing prices? Your kidding, not? I don’t think the top 500 are anywhere near that shallow. Do you really think theyre give up A330 and Group 1 wages, Intl flying for A320 wages with a PHX base? No, theyre all going to sit back and see how the January 2010 pay restructuring grievance turns out, assuming the company is stupid enough not to pay.

Are you sure about those top 500?

I know at least one of those guys that would have taken that deal. The now famous number 245, the hero of the Hudson. Sulley, an A320 captain, during testimony said that he would move to PHX given a chance. I understand that he will probably not be coming back to work here at US Airways. But he is most certainly not the only top 500 guy that has chosen not to subject himself to the delights of international long haul red eyes.

According to you every top 500 guy should be flying an A330. That is not true. Could it be that most people bid for things that suit them not just the best they can bid? Kind of like Skiles remaining a senior F/O instead of taking his captain position. Perhaps some of those top 500 would prefer the money and a house in PHX or California. Perhaps even some of those top 1000.

No, ALPO NO MO, the biggest shift Ive seen in the top 500 attitude came after age 60 changed to 65. That gave them the time and the patience to see this through, at least until the pay grievance is done. Granted, before age 65, I doubt if their street talk would match how they voted. Now, with a potential of an extra $1M in pay/benefits, theyre solidly back on board.

"Back on board" Was there a little slipping of the support? When that $1 million fails to appear will they still be supportive then?

 

[cleardirect]

Hate2fly, arguing with these guys is like talking to your dog about world peace. Amazing. With the current rates EXPIRING on January 1, 2010, who needs a new contract? Theyre better than anything Kirby had on the table. We'll probably know the result of that arbitration before we hear from the 9th Circuit. It is worth waiting for. Either way, we're not going to get a reasonable contract even approaching the January 1, 2010 restructed pay rates. Yeah, old Dxxx B, even when he was trying to screw us, he gave us a good paper/email trail. We know what it says, Westies can only guess what we got.

Snoop,

Better check your terms. Those rates don’t EXPIRE. The language is that for line 1 the rates UNFREEZE.

Line 2 which does not have a date attached to it is the 18% reduction. The rates are not “restructedâ€￾ as you said.

But you guys go ahead. Wait around for 12 months to confirm what everyone else knows. Don‘t be disappointed when it does not happen. Or if in the slim chance that it does. That makes the east pilot group very expensive to operate. Parker being the numbers guy that he is. What do you imagine will happen to the flying? Do you think that he would start to shift as much as possible plus a little more to the west? The west has some wide body rates. That was put in last year sometime. Quick calculation shows some real savings by the company paying the west the current rate compared to the new unfrozen east rate.

But the T/A has minimum block hours you say. Well get usapa right on that. The west has been under block since September 2008. Still waiting for an answer.

 

[A320 Driver]

Well thanks for your hospitality.

Your big mistake was bringing up politics on the jumpseat at all. You simply should have asked if he had a nice flight from Europe flown your damn airplane to BWI and said a polite good-bye.

Hope you feel better venting on the poor fellow, but except for making your chest puff a bit, I'm certain your tasty discussion served no purpose whatsoever.

Agreed. Plenty of interesting subjects we can discuss without bringing up the ones that can only add to the controversy.

And to all you prognosticators out there posting future pilot bids and company transfer of flying...I need some lottery numbers.

Lastly, East will have to get the pay issue in front of an arbitrator. IMO, the first thing that has to happen is we don't get a pay raise. That happens next January. Then we have to file a grievance. Then we have to have a hearing with the company (which we'll lose), then it goes to the system board (lose again) and then an arbitrator. Our success or failure at that point depends on the negotiating notes and what the intent was. BTW, it's not a snapback. It's a side letter with a date on it.



A320 Driver B)

 

[john john]

Have a sit down with management and USAPA negotiating committee(who represent the entire USAiirway pilots per NMB) to negotiate under section 6 on the table the LOA 93 pay rates with the EXPIRATION grievance the DFR appeal. Put it all out there come up with a contract and have vote of all membership in good standing. If the negotiating committee who represent the entire USAiirway pilots per NMB follows the rules and regulations of the NBM the outside courts are secondary and limited

 

[exB717Flyer]

The sad part of this pay snapback debate is but for the East malevolence towards the West we'd be completely supportive. We supported pay parity until the East withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007 (during a profitable time for the company). USAPA's folly in dragging out this conflict is harming both groups immeasurably -- and of course benefitting the company. Makes one wonder if perhaps it's on purpose...

 

[ussnark]

I have never thought this an unreasonable position. (The wide body fence.) The problem is that, sans ALPA, there is no west entity with which to negotiate.

This may have even been possible post Nicolau if the east MEC had had any position at Wye River other than DOH/LOS with conditions and restrictions.

Opening Proposal: DOH no compromise.
During negotiations: DOH no compromise.
During mediation: DOH no compromise.
During Arbitration: DOH no compromise.
Last day of Arbitrtn: DOH no compromise.
Post Nicolau: DOH no compromise.
Blue Ribbon Panel: DOH no compromise.
Wye River: DOH no compromise.
Pre Addington: DOH no compromise.
Post Addington: DOH no compromise.

The east has been asking the west to negotiate with themselves the whole time. Never a good plan.

LOS is quite different from DOH and answers west complaints about furloughees.

 

[ussnark]

Your big mistake was bringing up politics on the jumpseat at all.

I guess the jump-seater wearing a provocative red anti-USAPA lanyard was not bringing politics into the cockpit?

 

[Megasnoop]

The sad part of this pay snapback debate is but for the East malevolence towards the West we'd be completely supportive. We supported pay parity until the East withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007 (during a profitable time for the company). USAPA's folly in dragging out this conflict is harming both groups immeasurably -- and of course benefitting the company. Makes one wonder if perhaps it's on purpose...

You know what, Ex? We don’t care if you support us or not. Our pay snapback will be arbitrated, not negotiated. And with poisonous posters like you, any wonder - - -

 

[nycbusdriver]

Feel free to become or remain as fully disturbed as you see fit. It truly matters not at all. It's just a waste of energy. Frankly; I'll be long gone from the property prior to the expiration of 6-8 years, but....I can't think of so much as a single real reason that I'd ever want to see west people permanently leapfrogging over my junior compadres during my remaining career. The west is seeking a legally enforced cram down of the nic. OK then. The east has zero real incentive not to fight against that, however long it takes, and whatever it costs. I'll certainly vote against anything that would place your 11 years ahead of people I fly with with over twice those years....period, always. I hardly believe that I'm the least bit unique in that notion. It seems only reasonable to just watch this unfold as it will. Why be any further "disturbed" about any of this? The west-east impasse is, to say the least, well established. This will play out only in due time. Patience is a virtue....

Have a good evening. Enjoy your life.

As another of the "500," I can only say that I agree 100% with your sentiment, and most of our colleagues of similar seniority on the east seem to agree. We're in it for the long haul. Send us a contract with the Nic attached, and it will get voted down....with most of the "500" also voting NO.