US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[BoeingBoy]

And somehow the west pilots don't go on medical, military, or personal leaves?

Their 1700 to 1800 are all active?

If you can suspect 400 or more east pilots are out on medical, can I suspect a similar percent of west pilots are out, also?

Since a West poster gave the West ballpark numbers before my response, I didn't see any need to make a WAG (which is all it would be). I'm sorry you're disappointed not to read the news straight from my keyboard, though. If I were home, I'd have given the exact numbers for the East - at least as of the first of the year.

Jim

ps - you can look back at the post with the West numbers yourself, but I doubt that the West side has the same percentage on medical (being a younger group) or in "management" status (having only 3 fleet types instead of the 5 in the East fleet).

 

[EastUS]

Hmmm. Didn't think you upgraded again on the last bid. Thought you were still on the 76 flying Transatlantic.

But as Brad Paisley sings, "I'm so much cooler on line!"

Nice try, but I'll certainly take your word about the "I'm so much cooler on line!" notion...where some are concerned

 

[luvn737s]

Snoop-
I'm not lecturing anyone, merely inviting folks to look at the combined list and balance unfounded fear with realistic expectations. Once they've done that, I wouldn't be surprised to see alliances developing among those who would rather prepare themselves to capture future negotiating opportunities than sit and spin their wheels holding onto status quo out of fear.

Evolution will pass you by if you let it.

 

[N924PS]

First Officer EastUS... It has a nice ring to it! First Officer EastUS- Before start check please. Did you finish the walk around? I know it is really cold, but that is no reason to not abide by your duties and obligations. Yes, but you can't claim the FAA POI is senile when he approved the ops manual. Come on, that is just the way the system you agreed to works, you can't change your tune in the middle of the ride. I know I know, you have had enough, but that still doesn't change the fact you have to do your job. No, I don't think you can just dial 911, you have to actually be harmed before doing that. Yes, I know, you are not a rookie. Well, there is a grievance system, but this really isn't a union matter. No, it is not National ALPA's fault, they had nothing to do with your downgrade. Maybe we can talk about this after we get in the air.

Don't get your panties in a wad. He COULD be flying Captain if he chose to. Some folks actually enjoy the ocean flying- redeyes to exotic destinations on the Continent and TLV.

Perhaps you can buy the first round of Mai Tai's in HNL when the first CLT-HNL B767 arrives later this year. Who knows? Old EAST US will probably be aboard.......

Of course ,after all, he may not be the one I presume him to be.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't get your panties in a wad. He COULD be flying Captain if he chose to. Some folks actually enjoy the ocean flying- redeyes to exotic destinations on the Continent and TLV.

Perhaps you can buy the first round of Mai Tai's in HNL when the first CLT-HNL B767 arrives later this year. Who knows? Old EAST US will probably be aboard.......

Of course ,after all, he may not be the one I presume him to be.

But wait. What have we heard from the east pilots since the beginning of this merger? “I don’t want anything from the west.â€￾ “I had no expectation to do XXX.â€￾

Well that means that all of you east pilots so full of integrity will all refuse to fly that CLT-HNL flight. Because you had no expectation to fly the segment before the merger. Why would you now expect the segment now?

Can we all count on the upstanding east pilots to live up to your word this time of not taking anything from the west and refusing to fly that segment. Or can we expect more of the same. Gloating about what the east is getting while taking from the west and enjoying your fellow pilots decline?

Never mind I know the answer.

 

[Barrister]

How about the bulk of the pilots in the middle? How would it affect them? For many it's one or two guys between them and the guy currently next to them on the list. And the new guy isn't yet in the same base (nor may he ever be if he'd rather stay put). Does a civil war need to be fought over the most junior extreme?

OK here you go. On the East last bid the junior 330 Capt in PHL is a JB Allen a 1981 hire about 550 number on the East. No West pilot can currently hold 330 Capt based on DOH. (basically cause you didn't exist in 1981). Not inflame. just a fact. Now if you use the NIC list there are 80 West guys senior to JB Allen. Sooooo what then means is that if the NIC is ever implemented and the East is retiring 250 guys a year in short order every wide body 330 seat can be taken by a West guy. Now let me get this straight. Most of you have been flying out of PHX or LAS your whole career. My gues is that there are a ton of you Westies who would commute in a hearbeat for a 330 seat to fly INTL out of PHL. A ton of pilots on the east that are Captains willl never see a block on a widebody and thousands of F/Os will NEVER see left seat. You guys do and feel what you want but there are tons of Capts on the East who will never vote for NIC, not just the F/Os. Oh yes, one more thing. Look at your top 5 pilots. One of them is 49 years old (Costello). He will occupy the number 1 spot for 10 years. Unprecended to my knowledge......with hundreds of guys retiring before him who have been here longer. NIC will never happen. It will doom an already fragile airline.Lets talk about the one or 2 guys next to me in your statement. Look at it from a different perspective. You are right.....I lost a few hundred numbers.......but the guy hired at West 2 weeks after me is more than halfway up the list from me. Pal he ain't next to me he is 65% closer to the the #1 spot than I am but hired 2 weeks after me. So, if you look at pure numbers and how many were "lost" it may not look bad.....but look at where the guy who SHOULD be next to reaaly is under NIC. Makes you want to puke, and I ain't an F/O

Nick is dead.

 

[Pi brat]

But wait. What have we heard from the east pilots since the beginning of this merger? “I don’t want anything from the west.â€￾ “I had no expectation to do XXX.â€￾

Well that means that all of you east pilots so full of integrity will all refuse to fly that CLT-HNL flight. Because you had no expectation to fly the segment before the merger. Why would you now expect the segment now?

Can we all count on the upstanding east pilots to live up to your word this time of not taking anything from the west and refusing to fly that segment. Or can we expect more of the same. Gloating about what the east is getting while taking from the west and enjoying your fellow pilots decline?

Never mind I know the answer.

I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

 

[Pi brat]

First Officer EastUS... It has a nice ring to it! First Officer EastUS- Before start check please. Did you finish the walk around? I know it is really cold, but that is no reason to not abide by your duties and obligations. Yes, but you can't claim the FAA POI is senile when he approved the ops manual. Come on, that is just the way the system you agreed to works, you can't change your tune in the middle of the ride. I know I know, you have had enough, but that still doesn't change the fact you have to do your job. No, I don't think you can just dial 911, you have to actually be harmed before doing that. Yes, I know, you are not a rookie. Well, there is a grievance system, but this really isn't a union matter. No, it is not National ALPA's fault, they had nothing to do with your downgrade. Maybe we can talk about this after we get in the air.

Soooo good to hear from you again, always the professional.

 

[Barrister]

I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

Amen brother. Told us in ground school in 1984 that 500 people a week passed through CLT going to Hawaii.
ISYN.

 

[Pi brat]

Amen brother. Told us in ground school in 1984 that 500 people a week passed through CLT going to Hawaii.
ISYN.

I would imagine that quite a few of our younger staff don't even know where INT is, or who bought the 767 and launched trans-Atlantic service.

 

[cleardirect]

I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

WOW. I looked at a Ferrari once. When does that show up at my door?

AWA use to fly 747 to Japan and the rest of the world. So using your logic we also have expectations of flying wide bodies all over the world.

Please, telling me they were “looked atâ€￾

Here come the excuses why it is OK for east pilots to fly things they never expected but the west never had expectation of anything but west coast flying. As a late west pilot once asked usapa. Gentlemen, where is your integrity?

 

[N924PS]

Nick is dead.

"Barrister": "a qualified member of the legal profession who presents and pleads cases in courts; counselor at law..."

If your moniker reflects one of your chosen professions, you may wish to revisit the text of the Nicolau Award as well as the volumes of transcripts from the Addington case.

It would seem, as distasteful as you portray it, the Nicolau is not dead -absent a favorable ruling from the 9th. Your lawyer-type colleagues rulings and opinions- not mine.

 

[luvn737s]

name='Barrister' date='Jul 13 2009, 03:26 AM' post='696166'

OK here you go. On the East last bid the junior 330 Capt in PHL is a JB Allen a 1981 hire about 550 number on the East. No West pilot can currently hold 330 Capt based on DOH. (basically cause you didn't exist in 1981). Not inflame. just a fact. Now if you use the NIC list there are 80 West guys senior to JB Allen. Sooooo what then means is that if the NIC is ever implemented and the East is retiring 250 guys a year in short order every wide body 330 seat can be taken by a West guy. Now let me get this straight. Most of you have been flying out of PHX or LAS your whole career. My gues is that there are a ton of you Westies who would commute in a hearbeat for a 330 seat to fly INTL out of PHL.

So you really think that the top 80 pilots in PHX will want to trickle into PHL to sit reserve on the 330, when they've been top dogs in PHX most of their careers? Does that even sound reasonable to you? Look at the bulk of the folks in the 800-2600 range and tell me what the story is.

A ton of pilots on the east that are Captains willl never see a block on a widebody and thousands of F/Os will NEVER see left seat. You guys do and feel what you want but there are tons of Capts on the East who will never vote for NIC, not just the F/Os. Oh yes, one more thing. Look at your top 5 pilots. One of them is 49 years old (Costello). He will occupy the number 1 spot for 10 years. Unprecended to my knowledge......with hundreds of guys retiring before him who have been here longer.

Again focusing on who is No.1 is a red herring. It's not worth throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars away, not to mention the collateral effect is has on investor confidence and inhibiting future growth, which will fuel upgrades at every base.

NIC will never happen. It will doom an already fragile airline.Lets talk about the one or 2 guys next to me in your statement. Look at it from a different perspective. You are right.....I lost a few hundred numbers.

Again, look at it from the perspective of how many west pilots are slotted between you and the people around you now, and realize there is a less than even chance of them ever coming to your base (barring the complete closure of PHX). That's the practical effect if Nic. There isn't one base and the east pilots have not been stapled (with the exception of furloughees). If you were 4 away from upgrade, you might now have the potential of being 6 away, but in a larger pilot pool with more potential upgrade possibilities because of it. That determines the real effect of Nic, not how many numbers you "lost".

I admit that I hadn't really looked at it this way until recently, but when you look at the latest bid awards and seniority lists at each side and the combined Nic list, the difference is not even worth considering a move. The so-called Lottery Ticket isn't in and of itself worth a whole lot for most west pilots, but it is part of a contract and maybe most importantly (although the hard-cores may not admit it) it lowers the aggregate stress level by putting this unpleasantness behind us. Pilots naturally have an esprit de corps that makes a protracted war alien to thie nature.

You might then ask, "Why not then go for the fences and bidding restrictions promoted by USAPA?" I think that the water has been poisoned by each sides reaction to the others behavior that there is insufficient trust to ever get something like that to work. Ironically, IMHO, it may have been accepted in the negotiations phase prior to arbitration, but that is ancient history.

 

[EastUS]

Of course ,after all, he may not be the one I presume him to be.

What a concept = Your presumptions, as usual, being wrong?

 

[EastUS]

Well that means that all of you east pilots so full of integrity will all refuse to fly that CLT-HNL flight. Because you had no expectation to fly the segment before the merger. Why would you now expect the segment now?

I'm a bit confused here; Is that CLT to HNL?..or PHX and/or LAS to HNL? What portion of CLT's flying do you feel yourself entitled to? No need to answer that either, as it's manifestly clear that the west figures it's entitled to easy access to all east flying. Perhaps, in this case, you feel that AWA has traditionally owned all destinations you've ever or now currently fly to, and none others should venture there. Hmmm...I'm curious here; how does that logic apply to the less glamorous east segments you didn't previously fly pre-merger? Given that the west's the self-assigned bastion of "Integrity"...how is it you're all so comfortable flying those?

No matter really. The answer to your problem here is simple = Just convince doug to set up a thriving long haul and international base out in PHX or LAS...should be a piece of cake with the west yields..shouldn't it?