Please do me a favor FIX and repostImagine what a spell checker won't catch for them..
US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS
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Megasnoop
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The 9th court of appeals will decide if we lost, not this chat board. If we lose, then the NIC will be in all future TAs, no matter how many get voted down. Meanwhile, we’ve got LOA84 pay rates, $70 M, pension investigation to look forward to. Your future is staring at a permanent fence. Nothing USAPA can do, because USAPA can’t negotiate with the Addington 6. Remember, “the award is the award†(if the 9th says so). Get the record straight, it was ALPA that spent over $1M and its last 11 months on property trying to “weasel out†of the NIC. Such a fine example of “unionism†and "integrity" to copy. Why didn’t you DFR ALPA when you had the chance?
Nic4, when the merger happened, who was on furlough? From what airline? “Sucessfully stolen.†More flamebait. Please quote where the USAPA founders went on record saying they deserve to take your job.
Right now we’re just fighting your ALPA-Gate conspiracy. You file a motion, we counter-file. Denying jump-seats and comments like “misguided thievery†are what causes irreparable harm and strengthened the divide between the two groups.
“Stealing of jobs?†More flamebait. If any jobs were stolen, they were stolen by the company. USAPA grieved this. We lost, even though your own grievance guru, Mxxxx Vxxxx, said we did an excellent job. Arbitrator ruled LCC within its rights to furlough as they did. Care to rephrase who stole what jobs?
Oxymoron, “organized labor.†Your right, “industry leading contract talk†is a joke. 78% was the Kirby offer. That gone now. We’ll get our raise from LOA93, the wage concession expiration part. Then we’ll be making 30% more than the west. But we’ll keep fighting to get you parity, even if it means the NIC (under court order, of course).
traderjake
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- Aug 30, 2002
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Looking forward to LOA 84 payrates just like you were looking forward to a DOH contract.
When you make an East Reserve F/O senior to a West Captain you're stealing that Captain's job.
When you furlough a thousand West pilots before you furlough the first East pilot you are stealing a thousand jobs.
Just cause USAPA won't admit it doesn't change that fact.
Megasnoop
Veteran
3 days without posting, all that pent-up demand.
Such harsh words, eastpus. “mob, cry baby, found guilty, zero integrity, found guilty.†I guess your passing on the Labor Day Unity Picnic? Good to hear you had integrity. Honoring the transition agreement is what this all boils down to, something ALPA didnt do. Does a new union have to honor the decisions of the old union? The 9th will decide. Or maybe they wont. Worse scenario for both sides is that the 9th rules the case wasn’t ripe and throws it out. Then what? USAPA “tests†the waters with a No-Nic contract? Hmmm. If that happens, does AOL try to raise another $2M and sue again? (1mil to pay for the new case, the other 1mil to pay their attorneys form that first case) This could be weird. What do you think, hp_fa?
35%? That still leaves 15% short majority. Their less than 14 delinquents in PHL and not many more non-members. The list reads like a whos-who in ALPA-FPLosers. There arent enough East objectors even with all the west pilots to get 50%. Even in their best days, west only had 82% alpa MIGS (that came from 2005 DOL report, so not made up).
Major rules the real scenario until the 9th speaks. Then, based on their rulings, no telling how this will continue to play out. Germane, non-Germane is the next battle. DH, LS, DB, CM and their ALPA hanger-ons are already working that angle. Looks like we get to spend more germane mx fee money to find out if Addington/RICO are germane. While that debate goes on, most will pay up in full or face being 29 fired. If they dont pay in full, at best theyll remain objectors with no vote.
Such harsh words, eastpus. “mob, cry baby, found guilty, zero integrity, found guilty.†I guess your passing on the Labor Day Unity Picnic? Good to hear you had integrity. Honoring the transition agreement is what this all boils down to, something ALPA didnt do. Does a new union have to honor the decisions of the old union? The 9th will decide. Or maybe they wont. Worse scenario for both sides is that the 9th rules the case wasn’t ripe and throws it out. Then what? USAPA “tests†the waters with a No-Nic contract? Hmmm. If that happens, does AOL try to raise another $2M and sue again? (1mil to pay for the new case, the other 1mil to pay their attorneys form that first case) This could be weird. What do you think, hp_fa?
35%? That still leaves 15% short majority. Their less than 14 delinquents in PHL and not many more non-members. The list reads like a whos-who in ALPA-FPLosers. There arent enough East objectors even with all the west pilots to get 50%. Even in their best days, west only had 82% alpa MIGS (that came from 2005 DOL report, so not made up).
Major rules the real scenario until the 9th speaks. Then, based on their rulings, no telling how this will continue to play out. Germane, non-Germane is the next battle. DH, LS, DB, CM and their ALPA hanger-ons are already working that angle. Looks like we get to spend more germane mx fee money to find out if Addington/RICO are germane. While that debate goes on, most will pay up in full or face being 29 fired. If they dont pay in full, at best theyll remain objectors with no vote.
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A new union has to honor by law any existing CBAs and Arbitration awards, changing unions does not relieve it of the obligations, as you just saw a Federal Jury ruled on it.
And don't think LOA84 payrates are a walk in the park, back in 93 we had very strong snapback language and had to take it to arbitration and believe or not we lost, this was IAM M&R, the arbiter ruled that since the company did all the unions the same way and no one snapped back that we weren't entitled to the snapback even though the language stated" at the end of the pay freeze we would be placed on the next step as if we never had taken a cut and freeze upon the ending of the one year concessions"
Stranger things have happened when it comes to arbitration.
ALPA and the NLRB
And don't think LOA84 payrates are a walk in the park, back in 93 we had very strong snapback language and had to take it to arbitration and believe or not we lost, this was IAM M&R, the arbiter ruled that since the company did all the unions the same way and no one snapped back that we weren't entitled to the snapback even though the language stated" at the end of the pay freeze we would be placed on the next step as if we never had taken a cut and freeze upon the ending of the one year concessions"
Stranger things have happened when it comes to arbitration.
ALPA and the NLRB
- Jun 14, 2008
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Richard, if it is alright with you, I'd like to ad substituting the word "guilty" for "liable". I know you know that the term "guilty" applies to a criminal lawsuit and "liable" refers to a civil lawsuit. I think it is insulting to use the word "guilty" when referring to the DFR lawsuit.
Well, for starters we were not in bankrupcy when the merger happened. AWA had been shopping merger partners ala ATA and probably others in the timeframe immediately proceeding the merger. Project "zanzibar" or whatever worse case scenario would not have been needed if the West turned in the numbers they did following the merger when we still kept seperate accounting. Perhaps when fuel spiked it could have dealt a terminal blow, but by that time things get even more speculative. Frontier is still flying although it looks like Republic will own them. So who knows what would have happened to AWA sans merger?
I had a great comeback for this, but upon further consideration, you might be right.
hp_fa
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- Feb 19, 2004
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Sorry for the delay in responding Mega. The first time I sped over this I missed the question.
I agree that what you propose would be a worst case scenario. However I don't think it will happen. ** If ** the 9th Circuit were to agree that the issue was not ripe I still do not think that they would remand this case, but rather write some dicta for future cases and yet not delay this case any further. In my opinion, the real best case for USAPA is that it wins on some still unknown issue (since the brief has not been finalized and submitted) and that is a significant enough issue for the 9th Circuit to reverse and remand back to the trial court. (They won't take Judge Wake off the case.) The problem with that, from USAPA's perspective, is that it still has to face a jury and any significant deviation by a witness from previous testimony would potentially be perjury. Also, unless he quits and moves out of the country, Mr. Bradford will be formally invited to any retrial. That would be ugly.
Yes, but in a psychological warfare aspect it would start and continue a trend where USAPA is steadily losing the strength of it's majority. The more that happens the more the strident forces will dig in and continue to alienate the more moderate of the union members who only want the best contract they can get and go to work.
You didn't ask what I think is the smartest thing USAPA could do, but I will share that with you anyway.
The smartest thing USAPA could do is to accept Nicolau and end the in-fighting. Stop wasting time and resources and go after the real target, the company. All the pontificating about waiting for an appellate decision is wasting both time and money. Saying that USAPA is fighting on principles is $$$ to the company's ears and. at the same time, probably causing members to question their USAPA leadership.
The second smartest thing USAPA could do is fire SSM&P. (I know, that is a second opinion/freebie.) SSM&P really hasn't seemed to be giving good advice. By USAPA continuing to solict and follow that advice doesn't speak well of the USAPA leadership, does it?
OK, I am done giving out freebies now....
The problem with the germane/non-germane issue is that it doesn't give people the sense that USAPA is honorable or fair since they are seemingly stretching the boundaries of what non-members are being assessed as fees that supposedly are directly attributable to the services those non-members receive from USAPA. Neither the Addington nor RICO case have any bearing on services rendered to non-members and trying to collect those monies from those folks does not enhance USAPA's credibility.
cactusboy53
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- May 9, 2007
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That's unfortunate, since the ALPA merger policy does not seek your (or my) ratification or approval. I know you are upset and reacting, but I wouldn't hurt to read the ALPA section 45 and the AWA/AAA arbitration transcripts, and finally the actual Nicolau award (not just the numbr that you ended up with).
How much of our money (yes, I am member in good standing) are you willing to spend in a land grab that has been already settled (2, going on 3 x)? How much money are you willing to watch float away that you will NEVER be able to recover? The Kirby proposal +8% and other improvements would garner over $40,000 in wages, time off and other benefits.
E
EastUS
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1) No one perishes in any tragic car crash....until the actual instant of impact. Up 'till that very harsh point in time, and even seconds before...everyone's just fine.
2) ATA?..that would have probably worked out really great, at least based upon ATA's current condition...?? None can say for certain though.
3) "if the West turned in the numbers they did following the merger ...." No additional comment required.
4) "Perhaps.." indeed.
5) I'd agree that the results for any path not taken are never 100% certain, although..the west is notably fond of asserting that it's utterly "certain" that US would have become extinct. Using that same projection of "certainty" towards the non-merged status of AWA can easily produce the same conclusion for a great many observers. Merely food for thought.
The above observations are not meant to open up any argument as to who (as if any) "saved" whomever, but to illustrate that such thought's essentially an irrational, futile and circular exercise
Within any context of unionism, at least that I can understand; Implications or assertions that some/any trade/class or craft members should ever be held as superior or more entitled/deserving than any others within that craft, based upon any supposed/whimsical "future" are inherently absurd. The whole "we saved you..so you owe us everything" was/is, well, equally nonsensical. It's long been my honest appraisal that such flawed thought's suitable only for rationalizing away questionable goals or behaviors at a personal or group level. Seriously; one might as well consult the nearest astrologer for any determination of seniority or other issues. That alpa "processes" pretty much do/did just exactly that's not the point
Regardless..here we all still are in this so-very-sorry soap operatic strife....and "as sands through the hour glass...so go the days of our skies"....
I hope all who had the chance for some real-life, quality time with friends and loved ones this holiday weekend took full advantage of the opportunity.
Life's too dang short, but sadly; we always can find time to "fight"....We'll take termination end date LOA 93, 70 million lump instead. The date is fast approaching TIC TIC TIC.
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