US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

[Metroyet]

Metro, more 1/2 truth. From my brother who flies at AMR, APA was slapped with that fine when its 2 leaders, Mahew and Lavoy, got cross-wise with Federal Judge Kendall and they and the whole APA were held in contempt. There was no trial or jury award. APA couldnt assess non-members. The fine was never paid as APA and AMR reached an agreement after Mahew and Lavoy got voted out. Any comparison is ridiculous. If dont believe me ask your "buddy." So name 1 trial award where the rank and file was forced to pay DFR damages.


So why all the anger? Why not just let this unfold in court instead of flamethrowing on this chat?

My point about AMR is that it clearly IS Possible for the members of a union be held liable for their actions...financially liable. A liability issued by a Federal Judge no less. You guys have misunderstood, and underestimated how this process was going to go from day 1. Now, with the same smug certainty that you displayed while hiding behind the NMB, you're saying that the Judge "can never touch any of us". Guess again. You've been wrong about everything else here, why stop now?

As far as anger, that should be self evident. Vindictive anger oozes from the pores of USAPA...so I return the question, why so angry? I'll as you again at the end of the first week in May if you're harboring any new found anger.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You've been wrong about everything else here, why stop now?

Wrong about everything else? You mean like that small detail that we could get ALPA off the property?

Wasn't it a loud-mouthed westie that bragged that we "won't get 200 cards?"

Wrong about that stuff?

 

[cubfan]

There are only 3 broad catagories of germaine fees: Representation, Contract Administration and Grievance Processing.

Defending yourself in court against illegal activity does not fall under any of those categories.

Just throwing my 2 cents in, I was speaking with a friend last week who is a practicing attorney, deals in contract law. I gave him the cliff notes version on this DFR. He said it would be interesting at least to see how the court rules, not good for the east in his opinion, the more important issue to me was if the east lost, could there be a big settlement payment. He didn't know for sure, but said most likely what would happen would be the NIC would stick and the union would be required to start there. If they refused to do so then the court could impose a monetary value. Like I said, he was only shooting from hip since he didn't have all the facts, and I wasn't going to pretend that I do. So he somewhat backed up my personnel feelings that there would be no big payday if the east were to lose.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So he somewhat backed up my personnel feelings that there would be no big payday if the east were to lose.

Don't know how big it would be, but it's entirely possible (if not likely) that the loser will have to pay the legal expenses of the winner.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

I haven't visited this site for a long time. After reading what is going on now, thank God I got the hell out 7 years ago! Best move I ever made was taking early retirement from this festering boil of an airline.

CF;
It sounds like you did indeed. Wallyworld if I remember correctly? I hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

Warmest Regards & Smooth Skies.

 

[luvn737s]

Don't know how big it would be, but it's entirely possible (if not likely) that the loser will have to pay the legal expenses of the winner.

Jim

Not to throw too much cold water on the west, but how would monetary damages be computed, given that in all other areas USAPA provided at least the potential of representation? What percentage should be allocated to Seniority Integration?

 

[Waketurbulence]

Wrong about everything else? You mean like that small detail that we could get ALPA off the property?

Is that all you have to brag about, voting ALPA off?

How about telling us what has been accomplished since?

 

[ussnark]

How about telling us what has been accomplished since?

Um, confronting and winning against management on three issues.

In one alone, because of the ad placed in reference to the "fuel skool", many wealthy patrons that I know will fly US, knowing that the pilots will override management when it comes to fuel. Even if the pilots must tolerate some pathetic "training". More and more of us go directly to the FAA and the public, copying in the union. The "upper level management" should really be terminated, with prejudice.

You know what is pathetic about "fuel skool" is that the "top" pilot prosecuting the designated "excess fuel users" was grounded by the FAA for taking off with insufficient fuel, at least once. Not that a "west manager" would be any better. Pathetic that management only wants those willing to "tea bag" management. Look it up.

 

[prechilill]

The silence of defeat... It is deafening.

Where are all the chest thumpers? What happened to that USAPA dream? Why is LOA93 still here? Hellooooo in there. How is life in the cave???

 

[ussnark]

Hellooooo in there. How is life in the cave???

Do you mean Aristotle's cave? and USAPA is the dude that saw the light? Perhaps you are starting to see what is happening.

 

[2BorNot2B]

I haven't visited this site for a long time. After reading what is going on now, thank God I got the hell out 7 years ago! Best move I ever made was taking early retirement from this festering boil of an airline.

You sure got that right! But stick around ... you won't believe what you read here! The sad thing is, they seem to not realize the "Company" won! They will never see a Contract anywhere near the quality of what we had years ago! I cannot imagine coming to work 17 days a month to put up with the stresses they have brought upon themselves! I also cannot see how these wounds could or will ever be healed!

2B

 

[Megasnoop]

There are only 3 broad catagories of germaine fees: Representation, Contract Administration and Grievance Processing.

Defending yourself in court against illegal activity does not fall under any of those categories.

When I was ALPA member back in 80s and 90s, dues/agency fees covered the costs of the Air Wisconsin, Jet America, EAL, Rakestraw/UAL, DAL, CAL DFRs. As an FE status Rep back then, ALPA briefed us why members and non-membrs were paying huge attorneys fees for outside counsel, germaine to Representation. "Illegal activity?" What criminal law violated? Luvn, I know you think its a crime, but this is a civil suit. Agency fees are now being used to pay for the DFR. If your/our non-members dont like it, they can sue, I guess. Meanwhile thanks for your 1/3 contribution.

My point about AMR is that it clearly IS Possible for the members of a union be held liable for their actions...financially liable. A liability issued by a Federal Judge no less. You guys have misunderstood, and underestimated how this process was going to go from day 1. Now, with the same smug certainty that you displayed while hiding behind the NMB, you're saying that the Judge "can never touch any of us". Guess again. You've been wrong about everything else here, why stop now?

That was only small part of your poorly-made point, which doesnt hold up. I dont remember any "IS possible." You said ALL East pilots, even non-members, were on the hook. Balderdash. IF we get an unfavorable ruling after all appeals are exhausted and IF our union disobeys a court order, like APA, our members (even West members) could get contempt of court fines. But theyrd have to be damages proved to get fines. APA got fined because they damaged AMR. If our BPR did that, Id vote to toss them out. You dont thumb your nose at a Federal judge order. If West members concerned about potential fines, you should quit membership now.

As far as anger, that should be self evident. Vindictive anger oozes from the pores of USAPA...so I return the question, why so angry? I'll as you again at the end of the first week in May if you're harboring any new found anger.

Im not seeing anger on our side of chat board, Luvn. See Prechilill comment below. Thats anger. Win or lose, Well accept the results and move on. Weve been thru worse. If you want NIC so badly or if the judge orders us to come up with an instant NIC contract, Im sure our union can get you one, in the form of the only thing the company will sign onto right now, Hemenway letter. For us, its a wash. We still get our $23,000 pay-outs. We still have equipment differential. For you, trading NIC seniority for a 14% pay cut? What a choice.

The silence of defeat... It is deafening.

Where are all the chest thumpers? What happened to that USAPA dream? Why is LOA93 still here? Hellooooo in there. How is life in the cave???

You say the silence is deafening, Metro says our anger is self evident. Cant be both. As far as LOA93, it isnt amendable until Dec 31, 2009. USAPA never promised to slop out a crummy contract. Ein Snoopen

 

[Waketurbulence]

Um, confronting and winning against management on three issues.

In one alone, because of the ad placed in reference to the "fuel skool", many wealthy patrons that I know will fly US, knowing that the pilots will override management when it comes to fuel. Even if the pilots must tolerate some pathetic "training". More and more of us go directly to the FAA and the public, copying in the union. The "upper level management" should really be terminated, with prejudice.

You know what is pathetic about "fuel skool" is that the "top" pilot prosecuting the designated "excess fuel users" was grounded by the FAA for taking off with insufficient fuel, at least once. Not that a "west manager" would be any better. Pathetic that management only wants those willing to "tea bag" management. Look it up.

Um, three issues in ONE YEAR? WOW!

The only one you cite is the fuel issue. How do you consider that a win? Because you know "many wealthy patrons that know that the pilots will override management"? YHGTBSM!

Those guys still had to go in on their days off,(oh yeh, they got paid) get "skooled" not for taking additional fuel that is needed, but for taking additional fuel to run the APU all the way across the pond.

Over 100 thousand dollars wasted on a USA Today ad and they STILL had to go to "skool". That's a heck of a victory. usapa really showed management on that.

So what are the other two?

Please tell me your talking about the ASAP program. You know, the one that usapa let lapse all the while leaving EVERY pilot, West and east, un-protected. Yeh, that was smart. SO, why don't you tell us what was won? Before you say, language to keep someone from getting disiplined by reporting, tell us how many have ever been disipined for filing an ASAP.

What else? Please enlighten us.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Better yet, lets talk about what has really happened in the first year of usapa.

They have:

Divided this pilot group from day one with a constitution that only favors east pilots.

Have over 5200 pilots but only 2800 dues paying members.

Filed a frivilous lawsuit against 18 West pilots that was dismissed WITH PREJUICE yet usapa appeals.

Wasted 100 thousand dollars on a usless USA Today ad.

FAILED TO deliver a contract in 90 days as promised in their campaign.

Canceled ASAP leaving EVERY USAirways pilot at risk.

Have been sued by the West pilots for DFR and will be in Court in two weeks (lightning speed), something they said would NEVER happen.

Have been sued by a group of east pilots about date of hire.

Put on a pathetic defense of an east pilot, terminated for shooting his airplane.

Ran an illegal election by excluding a member in good standing, that will have to be re-run at a cost of over 25 thousand dollars.

The only thing usapa has done is make their Lawyer sehman a very rich man.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Please, someone tell me what their dues are paying for other than nonsense?

This is not the record of a successful union.

 

[cleardirect]

That was only small part of your poorly-made point, which doesnt hold up. I dont remember any "IS possible." You said ALL East pilots, even non-members, were on the hook. Balderdash. IF we get an unfavorable ruling after all appeals are exhausted and IF our union disobeys a court order, like APA, our members (even West members) could get contempt of court fines. But theyrd have to be damages proved to get fines. APA got fined because they damaged AMR. If our BPR did that, Id vote to toss them out. You dont thumb your nose at a Federal judge order. If West members concerned about potential fines, you should quit membership now.



Im not seeing anger on our side of chat board, Luvn. See Prechilill comment below. Thats anger. Win or lose, Well accept the results and move on. Weve been thru worse. If you want NIC so badly or if the judge orders us to come up with an instant NIC contract, Im sure our union can get you one, in the form of the only thing the company will sign onto right now, Hemenway letter. For us, its a wash. We still get our $23,000 pay-outs. We still have equipment differential. For you, trading NIC seniority for a 14% pay cut? What a choice.

So what is it. Are you going to appeal or are you going to accept it and move on?