US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[EastUS]

Keep holding out then and see how much you have in 5 years when you're still "negotiating".

PS- A strike vote will send a message to management. I can almost hear them laughing now...

PPS- Perhaps you should heed the advice of folks who have negotiated with this management group before. Naw, you'd rather reinvent the flat tire yourself.

1) OK. let's first see what happens with LOA93 ("You can live on LOA93 forever!!"...remember?) and..see what happens in the world overall....and further; just how much is left of the west in that time frame....fair enough?

2) I believe most are fully cognizant of exactly how worthless the west has been/would/will be in ever supporting ANY strike by anyone...ANYWHERE. What's your point?

3) "Perhaps you should heed the advice.." Umm of your group?...by way of establishing new highs in industry leading contracts?..Ok..now that's truly hilarious.

 

[prechilill]

I am troubled by continued reference to the east position , I repeatedly ask for clarification but only receive vague answers to general ideas. Specifically, if the arbitrator weighs facts and comes to what he deems a fair conclusion, what role did the east position play in the nic award? If as you say east had modified , we would have gotten a different result, then how can nic be fair? you see my point? if east could have gotten a better result by being more reasonable, then we were punished for being unreasonable. It is my contention that short of a mutually agreed solution, the arbitrator disregards both sides positions and decides what HE thinks is fair. You seem to imply that his result was based on the unreasonableness of the east. If we could have gotten a better result, we should have , regardless of our position. are there 2 fair results? if the one we could have gotten was better and fair, then we were screwed by nic. I am not arguing that we were (which I believe we were) i am making the point that YOU are arguing that east was punished by nic.

Your sense of entitlement is truly stunning, without a doubt. You think your furloughees should be equal to an America West captain. OK, sure. Do you ever wonder why nobody agrees with you (plural)? Nocolau split the baby, as another poster out east stated. Nicolau gave each side equal weight for their seniority- what each brought to the table. It's just AWA had dollars and you guys had a fist full of pesos because your careers were basically worthless in 2005- half the seniority list furloughed and staring down the abyss of liquidation. Just because you clocked a lot more hours in the right seat means nothing to us or the rest of the aviation world. With Nicolau, captains remained captains, senior f/o's remained senior f/o's and the furloughed went to the bottom. Basically just like how NWA and DAL merged. Face it- you are out of synch with reality and Nicolau is here to stay. You (plural) have no options left, except continuing to blindly follow stupid leadership.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

I'd be careful about statements like you're making....you and cleardirect.

Tiger indicates the remedy isn't arriving for another month or so? Why is that? All he has to say is, thats it. Why the delay? Could it be that he's realized that handing you the Nic doesn't advance the pilot group as a whole?...that was something he was concerned about, and he also knows that 2/3 of this pilot group will be alienated by the Nic. (transcripts)

Be careful with your early celebration...

Oh, and about the polling? while I would have liked to see it, I would have said file the appeal.

 

[prechilill]

I'd be careful about statements like you're making....you and cleardirect.

I don't worry about the boogyman. You guys are finished, the nail in your coffin is coming from the judge. Nine Americans found your misguided collection of nonprofessionals guilty in civil court- a feat which almost never happens. Congratulations.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Tiger indicates the remedy isn't arriving for another month or so? Why is that?

Because Judge Wake realized he set too aggressive of a schedule. He needs more time to make the required findings and the next available spot in his calendar is June.

Could it be that he's realized that handing you the Nic doesn't advance the pilot group as a whole?...

No. Your emotion would like for that to be the case. But the bottom line is that nine jurors had the Nicolau Award as the second exhibit in their notebooks to read. With all the bruha that your union was making over the unfairness of Nic, you can bet that the jurors read that arbitration soon after the trial began because that is what is really at the heart of the dispute. Your entire defense was built around a nullificaiton verdict - do the right thing and find us (USAPA) not liabile because the Nic is soooo unfair. Looks like nine everyday Americans didn't buy it. Heck, nobody has bought that line.

and he also knows that 2/3 of this pilot group will be alienated by the Nic. (transcripts)

Where in the transcripts can we find this. I was at most of the trial and I've read the days I was not present and there is nothing in the record which suggests that he "knows" what you say. NOTHING.

Oh, and about the polling? while I would have liked to see it, I would have said file the appeal.

Wow. Between paying West damages, Seham his three million or so, and sitting there on LOA 93 for another few years, you guys in USAPA are going to be paying a lot of assessments. If you just wanted to stay on LOA 93, all you had to do is participate in the process and then keep voting no. But the path you have chosen is going to cost you millions and in return you'll get the Nic in full, plus some more time flying for Mesa wages, paying our furloughees, and the Nic is going to be written in stone.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why you and your like have lost so much over the last decade? Have you considered for a moment that it is your collective mindset as evidenced by your "go ahead and file the (total loser) appeal" statement?

 

[luvn737s]

I am troubled by continued reference to the east position , I repeatedly ask for clarification but only receive vague answers to general ideas. Specifically, if the arbitrator weighs facts and comes to what he deems a fair conclusion, what role did the east position play in the nic award? If as you say east had modified , we would have gotten a different result, then how can nic be fair? you see my point? if east could have gotten a better result by being more reasonable, then we were punished for being unreasonable. It is my contention that short of a mutually agreed solution, the arbitrator disregards both sides positions and decides what HE thinks is fair. You seem to imply that his result was based on the unreasonableness of the east. If we could have gotten a better result, we should have , regardless of our position. are there 2 fair results? if the one we could have gotten was better and fair, then we were screwed by nic. I am not arguing that we were (which I believe we were) i am making the point that YOU are arguing that east was punished by nic.

The east would have FELT the result was fair because it was closer to what they were originally asking for. It's the same reason they will likely vote down a few contract TA's before they get a handle on their unrealistic expectations. Which in itself will be a watershed event for these guys.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It's the same reason they will likely vote down a few contract TA's before they get a handle on their unrealistic expectations. Which in itself will be a watershed event for these guys.

Never happen and in any case, macro events are going to overtake East intransigence. The Nicolau list is going to be written in stone, the company has no need to even bother negotiating as the East has provided them the perfect excuse to not have a combined operation, and in the meantime Doug is free to put together his next deal. Doug should send Leonidas a case of scotch for Christmas as he is the biggest benefactor from this verdict, and he didn't even have to lift a finger.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Your sense of entitlement is truly stunning, without a doubt. You think your furloughees should be equal to an America West captain. OK, sure. Do you ever wonder why nobody agrees with you (plural)? Nocolau split the baby, as another poster out east stated. Nicolau gave each side equal weight for their seniority- what each brought to the table. It's just AWA had dollars and you guys had a fist full of pesos because your careers were basically worthless in 2005- half the seniority list furloughed and staring down the abyss of liquidation. Just because you clocked a lot more hours in the right seat means nothing to us or the rest of the aviation world. With Nicolau, captains remained captains, senior f/o's remained senior f/o's and the furloughed went to the bottom. Basically just like how NWA and DAL merged. Face it- you are out of synch with reality and Nicolau is here to stay. You (plural) have no options left, except continuing to blindly follow stupid leadership.

Im not arguing about Nic, i was challenging hp-fa's premise that east's unreasonable position drove nic to one conclusion while he would have reached a different conclusion if east had been more reasonable. that suggests that there are 2 very different but equally fair potential arbitration results and one is bad for east and one is better for east. Logic dictates that if this were true than 1 isn't fair. You say nic split the baby and is fair. Fine. I'm saying nic should have reached the same result regardless of either sides position and HP-FA is saying nic's decision was based on the east being unreasonable which indicates a punitive award. I am not saying that this is the case, I'm saying that that is the conclusion to be reached from HP-FA's argument. I don't know how many different ways to say it PreChill, but your response indicates that you were not following the series of posts between HP and myself and just felt you just needed another fix of jumping in someones ####. How old are you?

 

[kubotapilot]

I totally agree with this statement, except for the Nicolau stone thing!

With two seperate operations and the current state of the industry I have one question for all of you...

Which franchise is more valuable / merge-able / sellable ? The West operation, or East ???

Never happen and in any case, macro events are going to overtake East intransigence. The Nicolau list is going to be written in stone, the company has no need to even bother negotiating as the East has provided them the perfect excuse to not have a combined operation, and in the meantime Doug is free to put together his next deal. Doug should send Leonidas a case of scotch for Christmas as he is the biggest benefactor from this verdict, and he didn't even have to lift a finger.

 

[nic4us]

Tiger indicates the remedy isn't arriving for another month or so? Why is that?

Oh, and about the polling? while I would have liked to see it, I would have said file the appeal.

Appearantly remedy is not coming til late June. Why? many factors I suppose. One thing I do know is that whatever the remedy is or when it comes will not change the verdict.

To poll or not to poll. USAPA can answere that on its own, but the BPR has already passed its resolution 11-3 in favor of filing an appeal.

So what we have is a union in violation of its duty of fair representation, fighting to continue its past practice of discrimination. Keep it up, keep building momentum, it is going to hurt even more when you reach that brick wall.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Appearantly remedy is not coming til late June. Why? many factors I suppose. One thing I do know is that whatever the remedy is or when it comes will not change the verdict.

To poll or not to poll. USAPA can answere that on its own, but the BPR has already passed its resolution 11-3 in favor of filing an appeal.

So what we have is a union in violation of its duty of fair representation, fighting to continue its past practice of discrimination. Keep it up, keep building momentum, it is going to hurt even more when you reach that brick wall.

i thought you guys said we already hit the wall. What you just said is that east still has options (however futile you believe them to be) so why do you think we shouldn't let them play out. If we lose it all were no worse of then if we never fought nic to begin with. Its nice of you to worry about us but the sooner you guys realize what you have to do to put this behind us, the sooner we can "move on"

 

[exB717Flyer]

Im not arguing about Nic, i was challenging hp-fa's premise that east's unreasonable position drove nic to one conclusion while he would have reached a different conclusion if east had been more reasonable.

I also don't believe Nicolau punished the East. By trying to get the East to budge from its position Nicolau was simply doing what mediators do: trying to get disparate sides closer together. He was also trying to lesson your shock by telling you you weren't going to get the DOH/LOS you wanted. Too bad your elected leadership didn't share this information with you. Your new elected leadership is (surprise, surprise) equally misleading you by giving you false hope of an appeal and arrogantly claiming better knowledge of the law than Judge Wake.

 

[nycbusdriver]

A mock bid would be a useless exercise.

Since everyone knows its "just for fun," no one would have any reason to bid what they really would do (like go in droves to PHL International, or stampeded to PHX.)

Everyone would simply bid for what they bid for now, east on east, and west on west.

Sounds like a nice idea, a mock bid. But useless.

 

[jimntx]

I totally agree with this statement, except for the Nicolau stone thing!

With two seperate operations and the current state of the industry I have one question for all of you...

Which franchise is more valuable / merge-able / sellable ? The West operation, or East ???

Neither one. This squabble and the AA/TWA debacle have taught the airlines an important lesson. Rather than jump in with cash to "save" a failing operation and get the "good stuff" before a competitor does, they are going to wait until US Airways has ceased operation through the machinations of the pilot groups. They will then go to the Federally overseen yard sale and buy just the routes and equipment they want. Employees will not be included in the transaction.

My airline (AA) has a whole bunch of pilots and f/as still on furlough. We could pick up the PHL (or CLT) TA routes, recall everyone on furlough, and then start interviewing for new hires. Whether East or West, if hired, you would be at the bottom of the seniority list.

 

[hp_fa]

I dont understand what you mean. try this, 2 friends find $1000. One wants $900 and wants to give his friend $100. The other wants to split it $500 apeice. They agree to let a 3rd friend help them reach an agreement. He encourages them to work it out but if they can't , he will decide. He tries to get the greedy kid to settle for the fair $500 but he won't. So he gives $999.99 to the fairminded friend and shoves the penny up the other guys nose when his true role was to give each $500 regardless of what the greedy xxxxxxx wanted.

I guess we will just see this issue from completely different perspectives because I don't see your analogy as being applicable because you clearly want to equate a "greedy" friend with the West and I don't accept that premise.