US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[EastUS]

So much of this talk about how many years you have been here is irrelevant. The old US Air(ways) has shrunk, and shrunk, and shrunk some more.

How's LAS doing lately? I take it that PHX must be expanding and growing then?

 

[flybynite]

So much of this talk about how many years you have been here is irrelevant. The old US Air(ways) has shrunk, and shrunk, and shrunk some more. Mainline service has been eliminated to more than 100 cities, and 54% of all US Airways-branded departures are now operated by regional affiliates. That is why there has been stagnation for so many years. It's not fair to expect the West pilots to suffer the consequences of US Airway's and the East ALPA MEC's past weaknesses and failures. It's time for everyone to realize this, and move forward for the betterment of all pilots (even the die-hards who would rather have everyone lose substantial pay and benefits just to not see someone younger than them upgrade first).

Oh, and I guess PHX and LAS hasn't shrunk and shrunk and continues to shrink.

It's time for the West to realize their options are shrinking to just about out of existence.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I would be interested to know how many pilots east and west have bothered to actually sit down with the combined Nic list and see exactly how their bidding position would change with it's implementation. It's easy to throw around statement like "losing 15 years seniority" but what is the reality? Instead of looking at how many folks further from the top you are (a top you might never get to anyhow, regardless of merger or list) look at how many from upgrade or desired transition position you are. Then realize that expansion would likely occur on both east and west when it occurs, dampening any "invasion" from one side or the other (remember, there isn't only one base). Then count the cost of continuing this war over what really amounts to a few percentage difference between what folks have now and what thy would have under Nic.

A little perspective can go along way.

Yes, a little perspective can definitely go a long way. You ask how many east pilots have sat down to see how their bidding position would change with the Nic. Believe me, many have. Of course the immediate effects would be minimal, but as you yourself point out, down the road many east f/o's who would capture captain seats when us old farts retire (eventually,) will be blocked forever from that upgrade by younger, more Nic-senior west pilots. That's the rub, and it's the real future for hundreds, of east pilots.

But the real perspective that we on the east have (that the west does not...not due to any deficiency on the west pilots' part) is that old chestnut "expansion." We have been the incredibly shrinking airline for more years than we care to talk about. Think about it. How in the world do you think our geriatric seniority list got that way? Expansion? We are where we are simply because of clueless management types who promised all kinds of rosy scenarios, but delivered NONE. What's more, they usually delivered the exact opposite of what was promised. This is the perspective that the east pilots have. If there were guarantees of huge expansion, sure the effect of the Nic might be ameliorated to the point of becoming moot. But there are no guarantees of expansion no matter what we are told. Been there, done that, had enough, thank you very much. We have been in the shrink/stagnate mode for lo 20 years, and the Tempe brain trust does not seem to have a different playbook from our perspective.

 

[john john]

Yes, a little perspective can definitely go a long way.
We have been the incredibly shrinking airline for more years than we care to talk about. We are where we are simply because of clueless management types who promised all kinds of rosy scenarios, but delivered NONE. they usually delivered the exact opposite of what was promised. This is the perspective that the east have. If there were guarantees of huge expansion, there are no guarantees of expansion no matter what we are told. Been there, done that, had enough, thank you very much. We have been in the shrink/stagnate mode for lo 20 years, and the Tempe brain trust does not seem to have a different playbook from our perspective.

In a nut shell

 

[aquagreen73s]

The East's costs are killing the entire airline. Same story as before. Parker really screwed up by not letting the law of natural selection run its course.

Get ready, because your options are down to two: LOA 93 as far as the eye can see (unlikely, given the liklihood of consolidation, but I'll allow you this option just because it's theoretically possible); or Nic + payraise. Choice is yours.

Your DOH quest has failed miserably and no one is to blame but the East themselves. From what I've seen over the last four years, it's pretty clear that much of the harm done to the East pilots was brought on by none other than themselves. Fortunately for the West, you in the East are being stopped from pulling us down into your quandry. Nic cometh, and that's all that needs to be said.

 

[john john]

The old US Air(ways) has shrunk, and shrunk, and shrunk some more. Mainline service has been eliminated to more than 100 cities, and 54% of all US Airways-branded departures are now operated by regional affiliates.

And HP pilot contract ground breaking language that allowed 93 a/c at 86 seat capacity

 

[EastUS]

The East's costs are killing the entire airline. Same story as before. Parker really screwed up by not letting the law of natural selection run its course.


...or Nic + payraise. Choice is yours.

Your DOH quest has failed miserably and no one is to blame but the East themselves.

Nic cometh, and that's all that needs to be said.

1) Yes, certainly, without any possible doubt, AWA, if left to itself, would have developed into a world beating megolith of an airline. Umm..about that "natural selection" = How's things in LAS of late?..Gaining growth in PHX are you?

2) "+ payraise"? Umm..sure, if you say so.

3) Understood, as the west contingent appears to accept no accountability at any level for anything...ever.

4) I don't yet see any west people displacing my junior guys/gals out east. What I see is a shrinking west presence instead. That's all that needs to be said.

 

[luvn737s]

Yes, a little perspective can definitely go a long way. You ask how many east pilots have sat down to see how their bidding position would change with the Nic. Believe me, many have. Of course the immediate effects would be minimal, but as you yourself point out, down the road many east f/o's who would capture captain seats when us old farts retire (eventually,) will be blocked forever from that upgrade by younger, more Nic-senior west pilots. That's the rub, and it's the real future for hundreds, of east pilots.

But the real perspective that we on the east have (that the west does not...not due to any deficiency on the west pilots' part) is that old chestnut "expansion." We have been the incredibly shrinking airline for more years than we care to talk about. Think about it. How in the world do you think our geriatric seniority list got that way? Expansion? We are where we are simply because of clueless management types who promised all kinds of rosy scenarios, but delivered NONE. What's more, they usually delivered the exact opposite of what was promised. This is the perspective that the east pilots have. If there were guarantees of huge expansion, sure the effect of the Nic might be ameliorated to the point of becoming moot. But there are no guarantees of expansion no matter what we are told. Been there, done that, had enough, thank you very much. We have been in the shrink/stagnate mode for lo 20 years, and the Tempe brain trust does not seem to have a different playbook from our perspective.

If this is not the low-tide of contraction, I would think most pilot's jobs are in jeopardy. The overhead of any type of combined operation requires a minimum level of cash flow, so a major contraction (absent another merger) is somewhat remote. Where's that rabbit foot?

At this point the most likely scenario is status-quo or very modest expansion for a few years. But if the pilots look at a combined list and see how many pilots are between them and the guy currently on the list next to them, you see that it's one or two guys for most pilots. And people retire on both sides (yours at a faster rate) so many would capture the attrition close to home rather than head off across the country to gain 1-3% better bidding position. Add in some eventual expansion as the economy picks up steam and you have even less incentive to cross the country in pursuit of - whatever.

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone. There are some who are tacked on the bottom and some who have enjoyed protection at the top, but is that sufficient reason to keep this battle going and deny those suffering from at least getting an increase in pay?

Setting the expectations unreasonably high during the bad times we are in as a means of preserving the seniority status-quo seems an overreaction to an overblown threat. If folks really sit down and take an objective look at the effects of nic, they will see that the power of a unified pilot group is well worth the marginal risk of delaying an upgrade or widebody transition. There will come a time when significant improvements can be made, but this integration has to happen first and that may not come with a huge payout. Again, a long-term perspective needs to taken to position a unified group to capitalize on better times, rather than remaining bogged down in the quagmire and missing the good times boat again. And again.

What frustrates me is that Cleary and Co. should be explaining this to the pilot group, not me.

 

[luvn737s]

Don't quote me, but the report showed that the most junior east F/O who would have upgraded to narrow body captain before age 60 retirement would have upgraded in 2015 without Nic and 2017 with Nic.

How about the bulk of the pilots in the middle? How would it affect them? For many it's one or two guys between them and the guy currently next to them on the list. And the new guy isn't yet in the same base (nor may he ever be if he'd rather stay put). Does a civil war need to be fought over the most junior extreme?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The East's costs are killing the entire airline. Same story as before. Parker really screwed up by not letting the law of natural selection run its course.

The east's cost? How funny!

And Parker has let the law of natural selection run its course to date. That's why the pull down has affected PHX and LAS more than any other city critical to this airline. Natural selection means cutting the dross that is not making money, and Parker said the routes cut were the biggest losers. Natural selection is working wonders.

 

[luvthe9]

The East's costs are killing the entire airline. Same story as before. Parker really screwed up

HUH? The east subsidizes the west every day, and yes Parker really screws things up around.

 

[luvthe9]

What frustrates me is that Cleary and Co. should be explaining this to the pilot group, not me.

Don't you get it, It's the pilot group that gives them the directions!!! Do you really think a few people came in and did this on there own?

 

[Megasnoop]

All is fair in Love and War. illegal and unwinable war Guerilla Warfare has been around for a very long time. West participation in the fake union. The highly organized maneuvering and what you will most certainly consider "sabotage" will now continue under the umbrella of being a group of MIGS.... fully underestimating the resolve and dedication of the West to Rid themselves of the most parasitic and underhanded union to ever set foot on American soil. Operation "Virus" is now underway. With mass West membership, that history will repeat itself. Guaranteed.

War, illegal, unwinnable, Warfare, Operation "Virus", fake union, umbrella “sabotage,â€￾ most parasitic, Guerilla Warfare, underhanded union.
And you wonder why USAPA leadership sees little to gain from wasting time on PHX/LAS meetings? Show us a different attitude, "mass membership" and we'll show up in PHX, "en mass."

The East's costs are killing the entire airline. Same story as before. Parker really screwed up by not letting the law of natural selection run its course.

And West yields are killing the entire airline. Based on cuts, Parker obvioulsy sees where he can improve yield. Its not going head-to-head against SWA between LAS and LAX.

Get ready, because your options are down to two: LOA 93 as far as the eye can see (unlikely, given the liklihood of consolidation, but I'll allow you this option just because it's theoretically possible); or Nic + payraise. Choice is yours.

2 options, I’d agree. And with LOA93 comes the expiration date of concession pay and the return to LOA84 rates. That's a hard date. We'll probably have to fight for it, but the pay is worth the fight and the delay. Nic+a payraise that is nowhere on the horizon. You can't get to increased costs until you can agree on costing models. LOA93 or Nic+? Easy choice.

If this is not the low-tide of contraction, I would think most pilot's jobs are in jeopardy. The overhead of any type of combined operation requires a minimum level of cash flow, so a major contraction (absent another merger) is somewhat remote. Where's that rabbit foot?

And that’s probably USAPA’s fault, right?

Setting the expectations unreasonably high during the bad times we are in as a means of preserving the seniority status-quo seems an overreaction to an overblown threat. If folks really sit down and take an objective look at the effects of nic, they will see that the power of a unified pilot group is well worth the marginal risk of delaying an upgrade or widebody transition. There will come a time when significant improvements can be made, but this integration has to happen first and that may not come with a huge payout. Again, a long-term perspective needs to taken to position a unified group to capitalize on better times, rather than remaining bogged down in the quagmire and missing the good times boat again. And again. What frustrates me is that Cleary and Co. should be explaining this to the pilot group, not me.

Luvn, none of us need a lecture on your "get a contract now" strategy disguised as one on the airline economy. Its obvious Parkers got no money on the table right now. In fact, Kirby said he doesn’t see any agreement until ALL the appeals are over. That’s his excuse for delay. We don't need one. If we signed a contract today (Nic/DOH, whatever), it would be 10 years before we saw the next one. For the vast majority of MIGS know this is not the time to go begging for a contract. Its a buyer's market and Kirby knows it. Even your "mass membership" drive wont have the votes to change BPR direction.
With the LOA93 pay concessions coming to an end in less 6 months, theres no upside for USAPA to negotiate a TA that would be a pay cut and right now, by injunction, have to include the NIC. Your constant west rants that we need to puke a TA ASAP arent making any headway. This will play out. Even if you get 100% West membership, you wont have the votes to change our direction.

 

[N924PS]

Well...given that you're not one of us that's sitting in that east left seat, and apparently, simply can't even grasp the very concept of not instantly selling others out for your own selfish gain....what can be said here?

Hmmm. Didn't think you upgraded again on the last bid. Thought you were still on the 76 flying Transatlantic.

But as Brad Paisley sings, "I'm so much cooler on line!"

 

[N924PS]

So much of this talk about how many years you have been here is irrelevant. The old US Air(ways) has shrunk, and shrunk, and shrunk some more. Mainline service has been eliminated to more than 100 cities, and 54% of all US Airways-branded departures are now operated by regional affiliates. That is why there has been stagnation for so many years. It's not fair to expect the West pilots to suffer the consequences of US Airway's and the East ALPA MEC's past weaknesses and failures. It's time for everyone to realize this, and move forward for the betterment of all pilots (even the die-hards who would rather have everyone lose substantial pay and benefits just to not see someone younger than them upgrade first).

Exactly!