US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[hp_fa]

If the 9th Circuit somehow rules for USAPA, I guess that will be a wrong decision too, because the O.J. criminal jury was wrong? Great logic.

Hi Bear.

Awhile ago posters were often discussing the liberal 9th Circuit and lamenting the fact that Arizona is in that liberal circuit. Recently that type of comment has not been made. I suspect that lack of discussing that point may be because that members may feels that the wait for the 9th Circuit to rule on an appeal (Probably 12-14 months from now) is somewhat far in the future as it is and then to say that they would file a Writ of Certiorari with it's probable wait and then the briefing schedule of the Supreme Court would put final resolution of this matter 3-4 years from not. (Based on a premise that the 9th Circuit would not reverse and remand back to the trial court.) Frankly, if my theory is true it means that many MIGS don't want to wait 3-4 years before meaningful negotiations for a new contract can take place and they are also concerned about the cost of such endeavors.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Frankly, if my theory is true it means that many MIGS don't want to wait 3-4 years before meaningful negotiations for a new contract can take place and they are also concerned about the cost of such endeavors.

HP, I think your time estimate errors a bit on the long side, but nevertheless even using your timeline, that means that the stall and delay crowd still won't acquire the attrition outside of Nicolau as age 65 has effectively stopped retirements for another 3.5 years.

We've been at this for more than four years; another 36 months to hammer this shut isn't a problem. We have the time and the funding to see this through to the end. Folks throw around a crude reversal statistic of 5%, but in reality the chances of a reversal here are probably a lot less. To wit: absent a glaring procedural error in the trial process (which obviously didn't happen nor has any been alleged), the appeal focuses on an error of law. Well, let's just think about that argument for a moment. What USAPA's argument distills down to is that the law allows for a group of employees to use their numerical strength to ignore a binding arbitration and then cram down the minority what the majority thinks is fair.

Unions are afforded a wide deference in how they operate, and that policy makes a lot of sense. What USAPA just can't get through its thick skull is that their actions take them squarely outside of this deferential envelope, and put them right smack in the middle of discrimination, ala failure of their duty to fairly represent.

Everyone needs to think this one through for a change. There's NO WAY the 9th Circuit nor the Supremes are going to agree with USAPA on this. Bank on it.

 

[EastUS]

1. It pretty much locks the east from any growth in the east. That would be company growth because since we have merged it is company growth not east or west.

2. All west growth will be shared 50%- 50%. So you want all of yours and half of mine.

TLV, china now CLT-HNL and 190 is new flying that that did not exist before the merger. That flying is a result of the merger therefore we should all benefit by the flying.

That means any growth or shrinking needs to be both sides.

So the hypocrisy is that the east is demanded separate ops. You want all of the benefits none of the downside. The situational ethics change to meet what is best for the east not the pilot group as a whole. Since usapa is controlled by the east. Usapa is only looking out for east pilots.

After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic.

Whatever our obvious differences; Thanks for the courtesy of a response.

"1. It pretty much locks the east from any growth in the east." I assume that you meant "locks the west from any growth in the east"? Separate ops does do that, and we can argue indefinitely about the cause of said separate ops, but; until/unless/ever that changes, we're all stuck with the existent restrictions therein.

"So the hypocrisy is that the east is demanded separate ops." Huh? Separate ops isn't anything that the east could have even actually ever "demanded", but exists due to the lack of any single contract...which situation exists due to a number of factors, but..you can certainly assume your "Nic Uber Alles" isn't going to change that anytime at ALL soon. More "too bad" for some sections than others it seems, but it is what it is.

"2. All west growth will be shared 50%- 50%. So you want all of yours and half of mine." You've got me completely puzzled on one point here = What "west growth" can you even be seriously fantasizing about here? Where has ANY "west growth" been taking place?

"TLV, china now CLT-HNL and 190 is new flying that that did not exist before the merger. That flying is a result of the merger therefore we should all benefit by the flying." I agree. All should share in that, based upon a reasonable and actual seniority date of course. You want it all, out of turn? = Tough Luck. You're going to have to wait on that after all.

"That means any growth or shrinking needs to be both sides." Via the St. Nic gift of course?..wherein, the growth would essentially all go to the west..and the shrinkage to the east? All I can say there is: Don't hold your breath. "So the hypocrisy is...... You want all of the benefits none of the downside." Spare us all any lectures on "hypocrisy".

"That is my response. Not that it matters as most of what the west tries to inform you of is disregarded or twisted or ignored." I'll certainly buy the "twisted" part, and why shouldn't it, quite reasonably, be "ignored"?

"After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic." I'm pleased that you're having fun. Life is good, is it not?

 

[EastUS]

Always the victim , oh my. Dont you guys enjoy rubbing in good ole LOA93. I am glad you are having fun. Plan on having it for a long time.

Indeed. Who can ever forget the countless times we've all heard: "You can live on LOA93 forever!!"...
I guess the current iteration of that now includes..."Umm...we only meant You can live on LOA93 forever!!...as long as only the east was suffering!!!, and only while it served our selfish west purposes!!"

 

[EastUS]

Everyone needs to think this one through for a change. There's NO WAY the 9th Circuit nor the Supremes are going to agree with USAPA on this. Bank on it.

If true? = Time and events will prove out what you say. If standard BS? = They'll prove that out as well.

"Bank on it."? = You're joking..aren't you? What possible harm comes to your cause by way of those in the defendant's chairs pursuing all of their legal and legitimate courses? I'll remind you that you people brought suit. Sheesh!...I'd always heard/hear that you folks out west are entirely all about legal rights/the glories of the law and it's processes/etc??? What's changed so recently and dramatically therein?

 

[EastUS]

Surely you understand that bankruptcy has simply become yet another tool for management?

Best management team in last ten years? Wolf/Rakesh, who, in conjunction with Legow, made a profit of $1 billion in one year.

Worst? "Chronic DUI" Parker and "I mess in my own backyard" Kirby. Bar none.

The condition of the aircraft has become, and remain, the worst I have ever seen, ever. Should I say "ever", again? It is obvious tempe mx is used to having pilots "carry" broken aircraft, their line of "persuasion" to "take" a broken aircraft shows a long-term corporate cultural basis.

The blatant manipulation of on-time stats by, sometimes grossly, increasing block times, among other techniques, points to the complete lack of awareness on the part of the present thief-in-chief sycophants and enablers, much worse than the "yes men" surrounding Schofield.

The QIK "rollout" and after multi-year continuous "tweaking" the still broken implementation, after breaking every IT software "roll-out" rule in every basic IT book, certainly shows the "quality" of the Tempe brain-trust. I wonder if they have an IQ test at the headquarters entrance and those exhibiting positive IQ points are barred from entering. h34r:

and the call sign change. After two years of "planning", the change was rolled out, in a mindless repetition of QIK, with no, and I repeat, no obvious sign of intelligence. Early on, I asked Brest Control what "cactus" meant to them after they initially used everything but and he replied that, it would be like Air France using a four letter call sign in the US starting with the letter "c" that denigrates the female pelvic area. No kidding. Pretty "professional" in their eyes. :blink: I am certain. :huh:

These tempe guys make the same mistakes, over and over again, because the employees let it happen. Employee push-back would actually save this miserable den of thieves from themselves, not that they deserve it, IMHO.

The only reason Parker has not declared bankruptcy is, with the lowest employee cost in the industry, he would then become the laughing-stock of the global airline industry, not that he is not already, by blowing half a billion in cash in a derivatives bet after world premier economists warned of a global meltdown in those very instruments at least one year prior.

Lots of other examples.

Excellent and spot-on post sir!! Agreed in full here.

 

[EastUS]

Are you aware of the differing burdens of proof in civil vs. criminal trials?

In any case, I find it humourous how many Easties keep pointing to the O.J. case - one in how many millions? - and try to make the connection that because they believe the jury in the O.J. case got it wrong, it follows that the whole U.S. justice system is totally broken.

1) Of course. how many people aren't aware of such?

2) Find what humor you may. That's a good thing, as life should be enjoyable. While our nation's system of laws and government is, I believe, the finest available on earth..well...only the most utterly foolish and hopelessly "innocent" can fail to see the fleas and flies on the lion. I'd bring your attention back towards the simple, "little issue" of having executed innocents, and let actual killers roam free. That hardly argues for the system being entirely broken..but..I'd guess that the point of view of those "legally" murdered, with the fullest blessings of both sacred judges and even mighty lawyers...might vary just a bit.

The best that we as human beings can do is one thing. Asserting some blind, ignorant, absolute faith in any system is purely foolish, but heck; have another swing at the pom poms....as again..life should be enjoyed.

 

[EastUS]

.....that means that the stall and delay crowd still won't acquire the attrition outside of Nicolau as age 65 has effectively stopped retirements for another 3.5 years.

That would be the east attrition that you're eagerly seeking to usurp..correct? :blink: One thing that's very refreshing of late = None of the vocal west contingent even begins to offer up the least bit of any attempted puff about the nic being "fair and equitable" anymore.

 

[EastUS]

We've been at this for more than four years; another 36 months to hammer this shut isn't a problem.

From the latest in reduction notices: "As a result, we must reduce airport staffing by approximately 600 positions this fall. Included in this number, we will also close the LAS US Airways Club and the PHX City Ticket Office, reduce staff at the PHX US Airways Club,..."

Even your rather conservative estimate of three years will see the west contingent swimming through some very "interesting" waters. No matter. We'll see what we'll see in the future...but personally?...I'd be extremely reluctant to "Bank on it" with ANYTHING out west, or with the company as a whole, for that matter.