US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Ogee]

I admit that I hadn't really looked at it this way until recently,

Well the middle 2000 over here has looked at it.

NIC is dead we have the votes

Barrister:

You might not have as many votes as you think after the injunction then damages are ordered. Do you really think good people are gonna support the current USAPA sham for that much longer? As soon as it hits their pockets you'll see where your perceived loyalty is.

Certainly even you understand that Judge Wake truly has the power...not just cheap talk.

Ogee

 

[cleardirect]

You guys crack me up. When I give back your words the CB’s start to pop. Where you try and use situational logic or ethics it will not stand up in the long run.

The west has never said that we only expect to fly what we brought. That was the east. So when you start to fly stuff that you did not bring then try and twist it, it is just funny.

The west from the beginning has understood that EVERYTHING since the merger is the companies and they decide. So when a new route comes up it should and needs to be shared.

This is the quote that I commented on later.
I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

So if you guys want to use that logic. Yes AWA “looked atâ€￾ a lot of routes and airplanes over the years. Does that make it ours?

 

[luvthe9]

Actually, they flew many CARF flights to BRU and to Kuwait during the war. Not scheduled but, they did fly.

And this whole holier than though crap from the east about who flys what. Big deal, so what.

Fact is, NIC is it, and the east reneged on collective bargaining agreement and failed to represent all pilots.

Your right it's no big deal, but when you say "to the rest of the world " your going to get called on it. - Not sure what CARF is maybe you mean CRAF (Civil Reserve Air Fleet). I don't think you will see the Nic here for quite some time if at all.

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you east pilots that think that somehow, some miracle is going to come along a save DOH or the Nicolau is going to simply disappear. May I suggest that you get the accurate information from the horse’s mouth? Read the July 7th hearing transcript.

I understand that you guys sometimes have a problem reading transcripts. The Nicolau transcripts would answer a lot of your questions. But the 92 pages are very enlightening. Starting about page 70 to the end. That should relieve everyone of any fantasies about the Nicolau not being used as the list.

Just a couple of examples:
Pg. 72, Judge Wake: The only thing -- I must admit I was a bit taken aback at the strength of the objection of that, because the only reason I could think of for USAPA wanting to not be required to follow through with that promise to negotiate a single Collective Bargaining Agreement would be to further discriminate to the advantage of East Pilots and to the disadvantage of West Pilots indirectly to make up for the unachieved favored position in the Seniority List.

Pg. 81 Judge Wake: One negotiating chip would be simply to negotiate pay raises for the East Pilots, forget about the West Pilots, and forget about the Nicolau Award. That would be a negotiating chip, wouldn't it?

Pg. 84 Judge Wake: It's a wide open door to the continuation of the very kind of bad faith discrimination the jury found already. And it renders it unenforceable by the Court as opposed to a remedy that takes advantage of the very responsibility that every union has. I'm just -- like I said, I have been listening for a specific as opposed to abstract and theoretical reason that would justify the union doing a CBA for some pilots and not others in the context and history of this case. And I have heard nothing specific yet. And I am mindful of the fact that the reason I am here is to remedy a proven wrong. I'm not making abstract pronouncements about union rights. I have a proven wrong and a duty to remedy it. So I'm very concerned about your position, Mr. Middlebrook.

Pg. 91 Judge Wake: I will tell you, I have done a lot of work on this and given it a lot of thought, and my sense arrived at after considering many alternatives is that it is essential to have this protection against discrimination by indirection. And that the circumstances, the history of the clear and abundant bad faith and discrimination here means that the Court's not running on a blank slate and USAPA's not running on a blank slate. We're dealing with a history of proven pervasive violation of duty, and therefore, it's necessary for the Court to come up with a rule, with a remedy that will restore the neutral and even-handed motivations to the process and, in particular, to the ratification process. Now, I haven't heard anything that would change my mind to the question.

And my favorite statement:

If you want to make more of a record I don’t want to reject it out of hand. I’m just persuaded that the alternative is literally to take a wrongdoing union and give it an injunction that says go and sin no more. I think I owe it to the law to come up with a remedy that does not rely on the honor system as to whether it’s going to be complies with.

 

[luvthe9]

And my favorite statement:

If you want to make more of a record I don’t want to reject it out of hand. I’m just persuaded that the alternative is literally to take a wrongdoing union and give it an injunction that says go and sin no more. I think I owe it to the law to come up with a remedy that does not rely on the honor system as to whether it’s going to be complies with.

Why do we have appeals courts. Answer, because judges make mistakes.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Your right it's no big deal, but when you say "to the rest of the world " your going to get called on it. - Not sure what CARF is maybe you mean CRAF (Civil Reserve Air Fleet). I don't think you will see the Nic here for quite some time if at all.

CRAF, my bad. But, AWA flew, internationally on widebody in Asia and in Europe. But its just talk.

Nic is it, got a problem, tell it to the judge.

 

[nic4us]

One of them is 49 years old (Costello). He will occupy the number 1 spot for 10 years. Unprecended to my knowledge......with hundreds of guys retiring before him who have been here longer. NIC will never happen. It will doom an already fragile airline.Lets talk about the one or 2 guys next to me in your statement. Look at it from a different perspective. You are right.....I lost a few hundred numbers.......but the guy hired at West 2 weeks after me is more than halfway up the list from me. Pal he ain't next to me he is 65% closer to the the #1 spot than I am but hired 2 weeks after me. So, if you look at pure numbers and how many were "lost" it may not look bad.....but look at where the guy who SHOULD be next to reaaly is under NIC. Makes you want to puke, and I ain't an F/O

Nick is dead.

Is Costello only 49..wow..that would have made him a 747 captain in his twenties. That also would mean he would have an almost 40 year career in the top 10% a great deal of that in the top 1% and would have occupied the Number 1 spot for 10+ years at AWA. He is a 320 checkairman and DE. I can see why he is a prime target of USAPA's seniority envy! "Look everyone that guy who is senior to everyone is going to stay senior to everyone, what a blatant miscarriage of justice, we cannot allow that. We must take from Costello to ensure those junior to Costello who will retire before him have a turn with his seniority."

You lost a few hundred numbers? woop dee dooo...I lost something over 1300 if that is how you are counting and I was in the top third at AWA, those junior to me lost ever increasing numbers the way you are adding, Odell lost what?, 3000. By the way Costello, number 5 lost over 517 numbers a mere 10,000% seniority reduction.

The guy hired two weeks after you, the guy hired two weeks before you were not hired where you were hired, they held a position relative to that person 65% up the list from you and that is where they will stay. Look at the guy hired two weeks after you at US and he is still junior to you, the guy hired before you at US is still senior to you, and that is where they will stay. Your advancement will come the same way it would have and not by a theft of West seniority to further your careers.

The Nic is the only combined seniority list at LCC, and is alive and coming to implementation.

Long live Nic!

 

[cleardirect]

Why do we have appeals courts. Answer, because judges make mistakes.

But 95% of the time they get it right.

 

[EastUS]

But 95% of the time they get it right.

As was clearly the case when OJay was found "not guilty" of the murders he obviously committed, but, in later civil proceedings, found somehow liable for those very same killings? Ah yes! The court system in all it's glory and magnificence, is always utterly just, and completely infallible! Gosh...if everything could just be left up to judges and lawyers..what a truly perfect world we'd all have.

 

[EastUS]

Barrister:

You might not have as many votes as you think after the injunction then damages are ordered.

That argument certainly makes sense on all levels. Should the west actually manage to obtain any "damages"....I'm sure that it'd further endear their group to the east folks, and thus, make a plus vote for Nic almost a virtual certainty.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

But 95% of the time they get it right.

It's that pesky 5% you have to worry about.

 

[EastUS]

Where you try and use situational logic or ethics it will not stand up in the long run.

The west has never said that we only expect to fly what we brought.

The west from the beginning has understood that EVERYTHING since the merger is the companies and they decide.

So when a new route comes up it should and needs to be shared.

1) Agreed..and worth your own noting as well.

2) Believe me, where west intentions were/are concerned...no one's ever believed otherwise.

3) Ah!..Umm...so; how does that fit in with all the earlier outcry about west furloughs? How does that work with the company deciding to place CLT-HNL flying?..or..was/is all of that the union's doing? if it's OK for you that the company/"they decide"...where's the winter of your discontent arising from herein?

4) ..And that logically follows from what? The current situation's one of seperate operations, in case that's eluded any here. By your own logical processes then..the company hasn't the slightest duty, and even very limited useful ability, to "share" any flying it sees fit not to. What am I missing here? Why don't you take this all up with the company? Oh!..I forgot! You would need representation to address your concerns...and the west is just all about destroying and/or undermining ANY union course of action/grievance resolutions/etc......and will actively cheer on management towards victory over the pilots, as has been fully demonstrated. Oh well...I guess you're out of luck with your issues of concern then. Oh wait!...I'm sorry, I'd forgotten that you can probably just have AOL/AWAPPA call 'em up at Rio Salado and fix everything for you.....

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

It's that pesky 5% you have to worry about.

I'm petrified. A long shot led by a fourth rate lawyer.

 

[EastUS]

.....or all of you east pilots that think that somehow, some miracle is going to come along a save DOH or the Nicolau is going to simply disappear.

Well....there's absolutely nothing to be lost by going through the appeals process, the LOA resolutions/etc....and much in the way of interesting circumstances may well arise within a year or so as well....one can't even reasonably dismiss the possibility that the west itself will essentially, "simply disappear". The east has seen mergers/growth/reductions and wholesale gutting the likes of which your group can't evidently imagine. There's really no telling what's in the offing as all this works its way through circumstances and time. I defy anyone out west to tell me that, two years ago, they even remotely envisioned that current circumstances would be as they are, or to accurately even begin to forecast the next two years.....

There's absolutely NOTHING to be gained out east by buying into nic at this time.

We might as well play this out to the finish.

 

[N924PS]

Maybe the west will get a nibble at Europe someday...when pigs fly.

Too Late 'driver:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CW...30/ai_67499359/