US Pilots Labor Thread 5/13-19--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[cleardirect]

I totally agree with this statement, except for the Nicolau stone thing!

With two seperate operations and the current state of the industry I have one question for all of you...

Which franchise is more valuable / merge-able / sellable ? The West operation, or East ???

What separate operations?

Kind of a narrow view and a bit arrogant. Ask the FAA, dispatchers, gate agents, mechanics or any other department except pilots and F/A’s if we are running separate ops or not.

If there is going to be a merger, fragmentation is very difficult. Single certificate all the other work groups would have to be split. Really messy deal.

So how would you suggest we split the company? The tiny fleet of WB and the pilots currently flying them go somewhere. But there is a problem with the seniority list because of the way people bid. Sell all of the busses to a different airline. Busses on both sides. The 190’s get split off? Would there be a bid before or nobody has a choice. You just go with the airplane?

How do you split the mechanics? Let them bid to decide where they go?

No you see this is not separate ops. It is not as easy as you take yours and I take mine. Better be careful for what you wish for also. With that “olderâ€￾ group of east pilots most of you are at the top of the scale. If you were to be pulled into another contract your costs are going to be much higher then the west pilots. Plus sorry but the east pilots have proven to the entire aviation world that you guys are just plain hard to get a long with. Do you think that UAL would welcome the east with open arms after the last try? I have these guys on the jump seat. UAL has nothing good to say about the east pilots and mergers.

 

[hp_fa]

The delay in the injunction issuing is that Judge Wake, after the trial had completed, came to the conclusion that in order to issue the permanent injunction and declaratory judgment that he needed to make certain findings of law in conjunction with the issuance of of both the injunction and declaratory judgment. He had already stated on the record that he was leaving on vacation after work on 5/20/09 and would be gone a few weeks. (I am also thinking that most, if not all, of his staff is also taking vacation at the same time.) So, a review of the transcript to reference the findings of law will be delayed since he and his staff are probably not going to be actively thinking about this case while on vacation.

(After I initially posted this I decided to come back and add underlines on the phrases that have distinct legal meanings as opposed to common meanings so that everyone would know where I slipped into legal language and so they could either Google the terms or, better yet, look them up in Black's Law Dictionary.

 

[Poug Darker]

Betcha he gets more than 21 days of vacation a year.

 

[wopr21]

I also don't believe Nicolau punished the East. By trying to get the East to budge from its position Nicolau was simply doing what mediators do: trying to get disparate sides closer together. He was also trying to lesson your shock by telling you you weren't going to get the DOH/LOS you wanted. Too bad your elected leadership didn't share this information with you. Your new elected leadership is (surprise, surprise) equally misleading you by giving you false hope of an appeal and arrogantly claiming better knowledge of the law than Judge Wake.

Have you looked at the list a few years down the road. Seems like you all always disregard that part. I do agree that we all have the same position day one of the Nic , but thats not the reality of it. East F/os will never be captains, East junior captains will not see a 330( which the west never had).... I could go on

The purpose of an arbitrator is to make a decision based on one side vs the other side, not as a negotiator. I do not believe that if Alpa came off their DOH stance the outcome would have been different. We would still have had the same result. The resulting arbitrated decision must follow guidelines which we all know were not followed.

The membership was fully aware of the arbitrator's request to come off DOH

Seems to me also that it is the west that is keeping USAPA from negotiating a new contract, with lawsuits, election snafus etc. Keeping your union battling itself is counterproductive.

Get involved, pay dues, read the conditions and restrictions, get older, watch attrition happen , move up the list, fly to europe then finally retire with your DOH. What a concept .

wopr

 

[nic4us]

i thought you guys said we already hit the wall. What you just said is that east still has options (however futile you believe them to be) so why do you think we shouldn't let them play out. If we lose it all were no worse of then if we never fought nic to begin with. Its nice of you to worry about us but the sooner you guys realize what you have to do to put this behind us, the sooner we can "move on"

I do not recall saying you have hit the wall, reached the end of your rope etc.

You do have options, and each option has a consequence, persue the option you deem necessary. The West has a pretty good handle on what needs to be done. The West has been correct at almost every fork in this road. We do realize what needs to be done but are unable to convince the east. Every hurdle, every barrier put up has been manufactured by the east. The West simply jumps the hurdle and continues running while the east scratches its head and tries to think of the next hurdle.

I understand why you fight the Nic. I understand why you feel the way you do. But, I would argue that there comes a point where you are worse off from fighting. Sometimes during a prize fight a boxers manager will call the fight. He sees his fighter has been hurt and has no chance of wining. If he allows it to continue, his fighter may get hurt bad enough to never fight again or worse, so he throws in the towel and calls the fight. As much as I would like to see USAPA never fight again, I do not want to see that same damage to east pilots on an individual level. We are approaching the point where someone from the east will need to step up and throw in the towel.

On a completely different note your arguement that it should have made no difference if the east changed its position during arbitration is sound in my opinion. You are correct that the same fair solution should have been reached no matter what the negotiators position was. Whether or not the Nic was punitive is highly debatable, I do not think so, I think it is the fair solution that would have resulted even if the east changed their position. To use your $1000 analogy, the two kids should each get $500 but the arbitrator says how do you want that. The greedy kid says in 10 $100 dollar bills for me. The arbitrator says well I was going to buy you a $1000 dollar playground where you could have fun together but instead I used the $1000 and bought a ton of cow manure and a ton of horse manure and gives each kid half. They have still equally split the $1000 just not in the way they hoped. What the east needs to decide is whether they are going to use their ton of manure to grow something or are they going to continue to push the West nose in it.

 

[nic4us]

I guess we will just see this issue from completely different perspectives because I don't see your analogy as being applicable because you clearly want to equate a "greedy" friend with the West and I don't accept that premise.

I asumed the greedy friend was the east in that analogy

 

[nic4us]

A mock bid would be a useless exercise.

Since everyone knows its "just for fun," no one would have any reason to bid what they really would do (like go in droves to PHL International, or stampeded to PHX.)

Everyone would simply bid for what they bid for now, east on east, and west on west.

Sounds like a nice idea, a mock bid. But useless.

Perhaps you are correct, I know I would bid PHX A320 Lineholder Captain, and yes that is where I am now, and wish to stay. Might be an eye opener for me to find out I would no longer hold it.

I know the simulator is not real but it is a pretty good training device.

 

[hp_fa]

I asumed the greedy friend was the east in that analogy

From his perspective I think he was referring to West as the greedy party. That's how I interpreted it.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

I guess we will just see this issue from completely different perspectives because I don't see your analogy as being applicable because you clearly want to equate a "greedy" friend with the West and I don't accept that premise.

actually the greedy guy got screwed in the end and i was equating him with the east. but that also misses the point that once mediation is over, the arbitrator should completely disregard the positions of both sides and base his decision on what he thinks is fair. so your premise about a different arbitration result if the east had moved off doh baffles me.

 

[pilotn79]

The fact of the matter is that West Pilots are out of money and will not be able to fund an appeal. Watch for the anonymous contributor to step in to help them shortly. Follow the money trail and you will find the main benefactors.

An appeals court will allow evidence that ALPA or the West pilots did not want the public to know.

There is more support than ever for AOL. Those who were sitting on the sidelines have seen AOL hand USAPA a defeat. Expect to see more Cactus badge backers in the near future.

We are in it for the long run and justice is on our side.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Betcha he gets more than 21 days of vacation a year.

How is that relevant? He is a judge, you are not.

Envy will get you nowhere.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

This whole situation came about because ALPA was preparing for a United or Continental combination with US Airways. This was ALPA's attempt to advantage the future merger or acquisition seniority using two pilot "neutrals", one from United and one from Continental. The US Airways ALPA rep puppets were ready to get national jobs if this farce would have taken place. They picked the Neutrals that ALPA national wanted.

America West pilots refused to budge on the Nicolau fiasco. The most important aspect of the transition agreement is a contract before the seniority could be taken off the shelf. They were led to believe by ALPA not to budge because ALPA expected to cram the rest down by receivership methods against the US Airways pilots.

When you hear the drum beat by the West pilots with chants of lets move on, lets get a contract that is better for all pilots and mankind, lets run a mock bid, their eyes are always on the prize of the imminent merger or acquisition.

The fact of the matter is that West Pilots are out of money and will not be able to fund an appeal. Watch for the anonymous contributor to step in to help them shortly. Follow the money trail and you will find the main benefactors.

An appeals court will allow evidence that ALPA or the West pilots did not want the public to know.

You gonna pull out that link to the original rico complaint for the appeals court?

 

[hp_fa]

actually the greedy guy got screwed in the end and i was equating him with the east. but that also misses the point that once mediation is over, the arbitrator should completely disregard the positions of both sides and base his decision on what he thinks is fair. so your premise about a different arbitration result if the east had moved off doh baffles me.

We **may** be speaking of apples and oranges. My comments were in the context of Mr. Nicolau asking East for a different position right before deliberations began in his proceeding. This point in time is well after the mediation stage and well into the arbitration stage, specifically after both sides had put on days of testimony.

As another poster opined this could have been a signal to East to reduce their expectations, which we know that East declined to do. I am looking at it in the context that at least Mr. Nicolau had already tentatively concluded that DOH was not going to be his ruling and that he was, perhaps, trying to give East one final bite at the apple before he rendered his award.

 

[john john]

As another poster opined this could have been a signal to East to reduce their expectations, which we know that East declined to do. I am looking at it in the context that at least Mr. Nicolau had already tentatively concluded that DOH was not going to be his ruling and that he was, perhaps, trying to give East one final bite at the apple before he rendered his award.

Why would he do that if right is right
Maybe I am missing something here

 

[usabusdriver]

You're welcome. I figured it was pertinent to the overall labor discussion so I decided to at least add it to whatever folks want to discuss.

I think the most relevant part of that article to these boards, with mainline jet pilots here, is the potential issue of commuting into base immediately before flights. We should all know how government allows itself to be distracted from monetary issues by lobbyists waiving campaign checks, so the band-aid fix may be rules that pilots cannot commute into base and immediately fly without suitable rest. Of course that would be an absolute quagmire to actually enforce, but it may be the band-aid that gets legislated.

(Yes, I know she was only the co-pilot and the actions of the captain are far more suspect. But I suspect that his issues will be dealt with by the NTSB report and the FAA follow-up rather than legislation.)

hp_fa,

Your hypothetical, the government requiring or implementing rules or regulations on commuters, is problematical and I agree with you that it would be a quagmire. The most troublesome or challenging aspect would be how would the government define the phrase suitable rest.

The government cannot stipulate thru the regulatory process what determines adequate rest for an individual in reference to their quantifiable mental state as related to their job performance.

We have encountered this problem in the rest regulations that are currently enforce today. The government states a minimum rest period is required free from all work related duties. Often these mandated minimums are wholly inadequate because of the associated opportunities for unanticipated adverse events. These events interfere with the planned regulated time period in which a crewmember is supposed to get adequate rest. You are well aware of this, think along the lines of what can happen on a trip that just messes with your time to rest. Waiting for a van, traffic jams, waiting for rooms to be cleaned, noisy guests or hotel equipment, sometimes it is the environ such as Manhattan, or the fire trucks responding to the fire a block away. The regulations just provide the opportunity for a crewmember to get rest, it does not mean they will actually get suitable rest. What stops a crewmember from going out and visiting friends or family, an old girlfriend/boyfriend, seeing the sights in a new place or city? What about the pilot who is in Manhattan for the first time and decides to see a Broadway show? Does the government need to regulate all of these possibilities where the pilot may not get suitable rest?

Pilots are tasked with determining their fitness for work under the current regulatory scheme in place. This has been deemed the only acceptable method, as each individual knows best his or her fitness to perform. Whether it is adequate rest or the onset of illness only the individual can make that determination. Placing artificial constraints on what crewmembers may or may not do with their lives is a dangerous road to travel.

A pilot who commutes across the country on a red-eye flight may be far more rested than the pilot who was at home with a sick spouse or child. So will the regulations state that a pilot who lives in domicile and has an ill member of the family must get a hotel room prior to reporting for work? What if they have a newborn child? What happens when the neighborhood has a block party?

While it may feel good to seem to be taking action to solve a perceived problem, the law of unintended consequences must be considered.

Rant over.