US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[luvthe9]

I'm not one to waive banners for management, but Luv you have to admit that this is the best management team you have seen in the last 10 years. After all, they haven't (figuratively) caused you to see the inside of a bankruptcy court, at least yet anyway. My point is simple. Stop pretending they are the worst you have ever seen because you have seen this before. At least the West folks haven't seen the bankruptcy court since the early '90s

The only reason we not gone yet, is because of the lowest labor costs in the industry which had nothing to do with you people and your management team. They are the worst we ever had, they are the laughing stock of the industry and they continue to lower the standards here daily. Have another drink with Dougie. Sorry but thats the truth. http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte....html?ana=yfcpc

 

[HPDriver]

I'm not one to waive banners for management, but Luv you have to admit that this is the best management team you have seen in the last 10 years. After all, they haven't (figuratively) caused you to see the inside of a bankruptcy court, at least yet anyway. My point is simple. Stop pretending they are the worst you have ever seen because you have seen this before. At least the West folks haven't seen the bankruptcy court since the early '90s

Its ok hp fa, let him get it out.

 

[Metroyet]

Even if towards a portion of the pilot group that you detest..that's utterly insane behavior.

All is fair in Love and War. By now, a group of such highly "life experienced" vetrans should have known that by starting an illegal and unwinable war with the West, anything could/would happen. Guerilla Warfare has been around for a very long time. That Chapter, in it's past form at least, is probably over. Now USAPA gets what it has demanded, (mostly ineffectively for the last 15 months) West participation in the fake union. The highly organized maneuvering and what you will most certainly consider "sabotage" will now continue under the umbrella of being a group of MIGS. Operation "Virus" is now underway...at USAPAs insistance. For the East to think that a plan hasn't been in place for this for some time, would again, be fully underestimating the resolve and dedication of the West to Rid themselves of the most parasitic and underhanded union to ever set foot on American soil.

That any Eastie, (ie you, Megasnoop et. al.) can actually register some kind of surprise by the West's reaction to the formation and cram down of USAPA is personally mind boggeling to me. USAPA should have seen all of this coming 1000 miles away and as usual, was completely unprepared for the reality that they have created for themselves. With mass West membership, that history will repeat itself. Guaranteed.

 

[EastUS]

All is fair in Love and War. By now, a group of such highly "life experienced" vetrans should have known that by starting an illegal and unwinable war with the West, anything could/would happen.

That any Eastie, (ie you, Megasnoop et. al.) can actually register some kind of surprise by the West's reaction to the formation and cram down of USAPA is personally mind boggeling to me. USAPA should have seen all of this coming 1000 miles away ....

What was "mind boggling" to myself and others...well...with complete honesty and without the least need or intent to produce any flame baiting here; It was not only shocking but utterly unbelievable to myself and a great many others, to witness ANY group of supposed "professionals" behaving as did your bunch in the PHX roadshow. The "highly life experienced veterans" truly couldn't believe our eyes and ears when that sorry circus was broadcast, as it demonstrated behaviors that we wouldn't have tolerated from even our own children during their adolescent years.....seriously. I feel it fully fair to note that NO ONE reasonably imagined supposedly "Professional Aviators" going off on literally hysterical rants, ill suited to even the most poorly behaved teenagers. "You know why I hate you guys!!?...I hate all of youse!!"etc, "flipping the bird"etc, ad nauseum.

What was, is and will always be inconceivable to me, is what the west group expects to gain from slobbering all over management's shoe soles at every opportunity, merely in some futile quest to "get the easties".
The west stance = "Hey Doug!..We'll cross any picket line immediately!...We'll show 'em for you!" "Can we snitch off any easties that might ever perform anything even remotely close to a work action!!??" "Can we hope and pray that all union attempts to secure any favorable grievance outcomes fail!!??" "Is there anything else we can do for your Doug?...any possible way to further cut off our own noses that we've not yet explored?"

"Having shown the world how truly useful we'll EVER be in standing up to management for ANY secular or collective pilot group interests; Can we, pretty please, have our industry-leading, magical contract now?"

As for such items as jumpseat abuse/jetway stickers/etc? = That stuff honestly never occurred to me either, since I can't imagine, on my worst day, sinking to such a literally unbelievable level of unprofessional childishness, so...I certainly didn't expect that from ANY supposedly "professional aviators", regardless of circumstances. One either has "Integrity" and actual principles...or doesn't...period. Such things aren't situational. I'll never deny any of your group a ride, or offer the least bit of unprofessional discourtesy in the workplace...based purely upon your wearing at least the uniform of a pilot and coworker, and out of respect for the profession as a whole...not to be confused with having even the slightest respect for your group anymore.....

 

[EastUS]

Status quo.

For me it means not having to fly FARs.

What's it mean for you?

What it means to me is knowing that I'm not selling out guys and gals I've flown with for years, as well as not seeing even so much as one west person displacing them. For the real satisfaction attendant to that...I'll take some minor irritations gladly.

 

[EastUS]

Guaranteed.

PS: Yet another of the west's famous warranties?

 

[exB717Flyer]

Its ok hp fa, let him get it out.

This is excellent advice. Over half the posts on this thread I'd catagorize as venting, ie, outlandish statements or unsubstantiated opinions. I do a pretty go job of ignoring them and it definitely makes for a better quality of life.

 

[luvn737s]

I would be interested to know how many pilots east and west have bothered to actually sit down with the combined Nic list and see exactly how their bidding position would change with it's implementation. It's easy to throw around statement like "losing 15 years seniority" but what is the reality? Instead of looking at how many folks further from the top you are (a top you might never get to anyhow, regardless of merger or list) look at how many from upgrade or desired transition position you are. Then realize that expansion would likely occur on both east and west when it occurs, dampening any "invasion" from one side or the other (remember, there isn't only one base). Then count the cost of continuing this war over what really amounts to a few percentage difference between what folks have now and what thy would have under Nic.

A little perspective can go along way.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I would be interested to know how many pilots east and west have bothered to actually sit down with the combined Nic list and see exactly how their bidding position would change with it's implementation. It's easy to throw around statement like "losing 15 years seniority" but what is the reality? Instead of looking at how many folks further from the top you are (a top you might never get to anyhow, regardless of merger or list) look at how many from upgrade or desired transition position you are. Then realize that expansion would likely occur on both east and west when it occurs, dampening any "invasion" from one side or the other (remember, there isn't only one base). Then count the cost of continuing this war over what really amounts to a few percentage difference between what folks have now and what thy would have under Nic.

A little perspective can go along way.

The Salamat Report, which was a study conducted shortly after the Nic award, answers some of these questions. However, that study was based on an age 60 retirement scenario.

In that report, the average east F/O who had continuous, uninterrupted service would have his/her upgrade to captain delayed about two years under the Nic. So with the change in retirement age the delay becomes seven years.

For many F/O's in the east, a seven year delay translates into a permanent dely - no upgrade possible prior to retirement.

Unless they change the retirement age to 70 :blink:

 

[exB717Flyer]

For many F/O's in the east, a seven year delay translates into a permanent dely - no upgrade possible prior to retirement.

Here's the relevent question: in 2005, the day before the merger announcement, how many years would've it taken for them to upgrade? My point is those opportunities were lost due to the bankruptcies suffered by US Airways. The Nicolau list merely sustains that loss. For further explanation please re-read the Nicolau Award.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here's the relevent question: in 2005, the day before the merger announcement, how many years would've it taken for them to upgrade? My point is those opportunities were lost due to the bankruptcies suffered by US Airways. The Nicolau list merely sustains that loss. For further explanation please re-read the Nicolau Award.

Don't quote me, but the report showed that the most junior east F/O who would have upgraded to narrow body captain before age 60 retirement would have upgraded in 2015 without Nic and 2017 with Nic.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The Salamat Report, which was a study conducted shortly after the Nic award, answers some of these questions. However, that study was based on an age 60 retirement scenario.

In that report, the average east F/O who had continuous, uninterrupted service would have his/her upgrade to captain delayed about two years under the Nic. So with the change in retirement age the delay becomes seven years.

For many F/O's in the east, a seven year delay translates into a permanent dely - no upgrade possible prior to retirement.

Unless they change the retirement age to 70 :blink:

That five year change then is across the board, east and west, is it not? But hey, we all get five more years to fly! Whoopie, all age 65 did is prolong all our misery, lets not even talk about 70. :down:

The only way I see that an east fo that would upgrade with a two year delay, but not with a 7 year delay due to the age change, is if he himself medicals out during the extra five year window, and no one else does. Age 65 applies equally, it doesn't change anything directly.

 

[Piedmont1984]

That five year change then is across the board, east and west, is it not? But hey, we all get five more years to fly! Whoopie, all age 65 did is prolong all our misery, lets not even talk about 70. :down:

The only way I see that an east fo that would upgrade with a two year delay, but not with a 7 year delay due to the age change, is if he himself medicals out during the extra five year window, and no one else does. Age 65 applies equally, it doesn't change anything directly.

Negative. Not if the west F/O happens to be 5 years younger. It changes everything. And that is roughly the difference in east and west demographics.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Negative. Not if the west F/O happens to be 5 years younger. It changes everything. And that is roughly the difference in east and west demographics.
[/quote

The age 65 rule change didn't change demographics one iota. If the east fo wouldn't upgrade after age 65, he wouldn't have upgraded with age 60 either. Mandatory retirement age was all that changed.

The real winners are all your east pilots born in 55 and hired in 79. No one ever talks about that though. If were gonna just throw stuff out there, we may as well throw that out too. No one out east ever talks about the babies on the top half of the east list.

Likewise, we also have west fos on the bottom half of the list born in the 50s just like you do. No one out east ever talks about that either.

 

[westcoastflyer]

So much of this talk about how many years you have been here is irrelevant. The old US Air(ways) has shrunk, and shrunk, and shrunk some more. Mainline service has been eliminated to more than 100 cities, and 54% of all US Airways-branded departures are now operated by regional affiliates. That is why there has been stagnation for so many years. It's not fair to expect the West pilots to suffer the consequences of US Airway's and the East ALPA MEC's past weaknesses and failures. It's time for everyone to realize this, and move forward for the betterment of all pilots (even the die-hards who would rather have everyone lose substantial pay and benefits just to not see someone younger than them upgrade first).