Chip you guys really need to quit crying.You guys tried to tell the iam and cwa that a no vote would lead to liquidation.It is pretty simple terminante the pilot pension or liquidate.If you guys don't like it QUIT.How does it feel to have that shoe on the other foot?
Here is the political backdrop.
The Republicans have shown excellent party discipline in implementing the Administration's agenda.
Bush is pushing for DBRP's to be converted to cash - balance plans. (cash balance plans are the very worst outcome for working families, worse than 401k's, and the worst for middle aged working folks, which most of U happens to be)
Do you really think a Republican Congress is going to support a DBRP bailout? I have great respect for Arlen Specter - I've met him a few times, and he strikes me to be as honorable as a politician can be. Keep in mind he's one of the last of a dying breed - a moderate Republican. He is no White House favorite. I think he's trying to help U because he thinks it's the right thing to do, and because he can count votes. I am aware Bush needs PA in 04, but Bush seems to go with his instincts - how smart was his announcement on the Michigan University admissions case, so soon after the Lott debacle? On the face of it, it appears he's abandoning the hope of attracting black and Latino votes. I think he figures folks have short memories and he'll finesse it when the time comes.
I do not forsee a political solution.
The scoreboard, after C,pI, and C,pII
Dave 2 Unions 0
After the pension deal (C,pIII?)
Dave 3 Unions 0
ALPA: "what was the number on that bus?"
mlt was right - we been played! (does anyone REALLY think this little kabuki theatre at U was not scripted well in advance?)
The Republicans have shown excellent party discipline in implementing the Administration's agenda.
Bush is pushing for DBRP's to be converted to cash - balance plans. (cash balance plans are the very worst outcome for working families, worse than 401k's, and the worst for middle aged working folks, which most of U happens to be)
Do you really think a Republican Congress is going to support a DBRP bailout? I have great respect for Arlen Specter - I've met him a few times, and he strikes me to be as honorable as a politician can be. Keep in mind he's one of the last of a dying breed - a moderate Republican. He is no White House favorite. I think he's trying to help U because he thinks it's the right thing to do, and because he can count votes. I am aware Bush needs PA in 04, but Bush seems to go with his instincts - how smart was his announcement on the Michigan University admissions case, so soon after the Lott debacle? On the face of it, it appears he's abandoning the hope of attracting black and Latino votes. I think he figures folks have short memories and he'll finesse it when the time comes.
I do not forsee a political solution.
The scoreboard, after C,pI, and C,pII
Dave 2 Unions 0
After the pension deal (C,pIII?)
Dave 3 Unions 0
ALPA: "what was the number on that bus?"
mlt was right - we been played! (does anyone REALLY think this little kabuki theatre at U was not scripted well in advance?)
From the very first road show put on by Dave...he said the pension plan would be a problem...he repeated it in the second road show.
Now I am betting that Dave has a plan for the pension plan which he will reveal today and this is the creative plan he mention sometime in the yesterdays.
Since they need 60 days notice to terminate they will get there 60 days today and he will unviel his new plan which ALPA will endorse and by the end of march it will go into effect...
Now for all you pilots who think you can quit and get another job think again...Most majors have laid off pilots and I dont think there is enough jobs to go around.
Anywho...I am hoping the judge will approve the plan ..I am hoping the creditors/lessors vote to accept the plan....and then we can move on..and maybe Chip will buy us all beers or our favourite poison.
If not oh well ......life goes on .....
Now I am betting that Dave has a plan for the pension plan which he will reveal today and this is the creative plan he mention sometime in the yesterdays.
Since they need 60 days notice to terminate they will get there 60 days today and he will unviel his new plan which ALPA will endorse and by the end of march it will go into effect...
Now for all you pilots who think you can quit and get another job think again...Most majors have laid off pilots and I dont think there is enough jobs to go around.
Anywho...I am hoping the judge will approve the plan ..I am hoping the creditors/lessors vote to accept the plan....and then we can move on..and maybe Chip will buy us all beers or our favourite poison.
If not oh well ......life goes on .....
hope he doesn't end up on the side lines looking like cowher at the last moment.
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/15/2003 4:31:38 PM chipmunn wrote:
[P]In an interview with Pittsburgh TV Station KDKA Senator Arlen Specter said he "thinks he has a strong case to save the (defined benefit plan) and he thinks we will win." The senator continued it would likely come down to the wire like the Pittsburgh - Tennessee game.[BR][BR]Two more weeks to go...we'll see...[BR][BR]Chip [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/15/2003 4:31:38 PM chipmunn wrote:
[P]In an interview with Pittsburgh TV Station KDKA Senator Arlen Specter said he "thinks he has a strong case to save the (defined benefit plan) and he thinks we will win." The senator continued it would likely come down to the wire like the Pittsburgh - Tennessee game.[BR][BR]Two more weeks to go...we'll see...[BR][BR]Chip [/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
autofixer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 1,804
- 241
Historically companies always come back for three rounds of concessions. The retirement issue is round three. I knew it would come to this, that is why I voted NO the first time. It was foolish to think that the company would only want one round of concessions, but it was voted in by a vast majority of pilots; voting emotionally, there was never any real information available. Round two, the MEC voted representing the pilots (I guess they were afraid it would not pass) because the company said it was "urget, not time to wait!" As we saw, the IAM, CWA could wait and vote and the company still is afloat. Now round three is here, the pension. I can't imagine for a minute that anyone would not see the potential windfall for the company if they don't fund the pension any more .
I think the pilots are angry because they did give. This is not round two--like last week--this is round three. But, "Those who do not know history are damned to repeat it."
I think the pilots are angry because they did give. This is not round two--like last week--this is round three. But, "Those who do not know history are damned to repeat it."
Think about what's in management's head - not just at U , but all the legacy carriers.
ALPA has stood management up against the wall (in their minds) for decades. Now, ALPA, along with the rest of the unions, have been delivered into their hands, with a nice little ribbon wrapped around them.
And management is not going to take FULL advantage? It's payback time.
ALPA's about to learn they're just the hired help, along with all the rest of us. A little solidarity thru the years would have been nice along about now, wouldn't it?
One of the little mantras I learned in a union class was "you can't be an elitist and a unionist." Thought it was a little radical at the time. Guess I was wrong.
ALPA has stood management up against the wall (in their minds) for decades. Now, ALPA, along with the rest of the unions, have been delivered into their hands, with a nice little ribbon wrapped around them.
And management is not going to take FULL advantage? It's payback time.
ALPA's about to learn they're just the hired help, along with all the rest of us. A little solidarity thru the years would have been nice along about now, wouldn't it?
One of the little mantras I learned in a union class was "you can't be an elitist and a unionist." Thought it was a little radical at the time. Guess I was wrong.
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
I read somewhere that a pretty large percentage of U pilots are over 50. Where is a guy who is over 50 going to find a 6 figure job flying in today's environment?
He/she is not. Period. End of story. If it comes to it, management will get this additional pound of flesh from the pilots, and US will go on.
As for why? Years and years of ALPA having management up against it have come back to bite ALPA is the tush. It happens when your mouth becomes bigger than your stomach.
He/she is not. Period. End of story. If it comes to it, management will get this additional pound of flesh from the pilots, and US will go on.
As for why? Years and years of ALPA having management up against it have come back to bite ALPA is the tush. It happens when your mouth becomes bigger than your stomach.
michael707767
Senior
- Aug 21, 2002
- 332
- 0
I wonder, if U gets approval to change the pension funding, how long before every other airline asks for the same? And would it be fair to give it to us and not to them?
Chip your group has given the most because you make the most, I made $40,000 last year, what did you make? Myself and numerous others have no sympathy for pilots who make six figures. Also Chip in 1992 all the rampers and customer service people had their pensions frozen, lost their vacation, sick time, oji time, had their full time status cut to part-time for 40% of the employees which caused them to go from 40 hours a week with family medical at a reasonable cost to 25 hours a week with $300 a month for insurance. So I dont want to hear about how your group has given so much, in 2001 you got a 17% raise as a pilot, I got three cents as a stock clerk. Don't post just the bad things, post all the perks your group has gotten. In 1992 you had laid off pilots getting full salary, not other group got that benefit, you also had all the pilots get paid for not flying during our strike. From 1995 till 1999 I had no raise at all.
OP
chipmunn
Guest
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #71
ClueByFour:
ClueByFour asked: I read somewhere that a pretty large percentage of U pilots are over 50. Where is a guy who is over 50 going to find a 6 figure job flying in today's environment?
Chip answers: Cathay Pacific, JAL, Eva, Air Jaimaca, ANA, Thai, Saudia, etc. The only reason pilots do not take these jobs is that there is no retirement, but they now pay more than US Airways, are tax free, provide free housing, and large bonus payments if you complete the contract.
Biff: The majority of the ALPA members understand your point, but many pilots believe if ALPA should take a third cut than all employees should take another cut. If fact, do not be surprised if this becomes an ALPA demand. Furthermore, with the Bush Administration pushing "Cash Balance" plans do not be surprised to see the company seek to terminate the IAM and AFA defined benefit plans as well, if something satisfactory cannot be worked out with ALPA.
Chip
ClueByFour asked: I read somewhere that a pretty large percentage of U pilots are over 50. Where is a guy who is over 50 going to find a 6 figure job flying in today's environment?
Chip answers: Cathay Pacific, JAL, Eva, Air Jaimaca, ANA, Thai, Saudia, etc. The only reason pilots do not take these jobs is that there is no retirement, but they now pay more than US Airways, are tax free, provide free housing, and large bonus payments if you complete the contract.
Biff: The majority of the ALPA members understand your point, but many pilots believe if ALPA should take a third cut than all employees should take another cut. If fact, do not be surprised if this becomes an ALPA demand. Furthermore, with the Bush Administration pushing "Cash Balance" plans do not be surprised to see the company seek to terminate the IAM and AFA defined benefit plans as well, if something satisfactory cannot be worked out with ALPA.
Chip
Newsweek, Jan 20th edition, Jane Bryant Quinn's article,p.35
"At the end of 2001, 261 companies had $111 billion less in their plans than they needed to meet their obligations, reports the PBGC..." "The true shortfalls are probably worse, because shifty accounting can mask a loss."
"Between September and December, more money went into pension plans than in the past 10 years," (puts into question the notion U's plans were "fully funded" doesn't it?)
"While corporations have to fund for pension benefits already promised, they don't have to keep those benefits going. So they're solving their problems by converting....to cash balance plans."
"The Treasury put a moratorium on conversions to cash-balance plans in 1999, when older workers shouted that they were unfair.Last month the plans got a green light.... About 500 companies already offer them, and many more are in the pipeline."
"Note that pension cutbacks are strictly for peons. Halliburton Oil gave CEO Dick Cheney early-retirement benefits....even though he hadn't earned them."
dio's comment - "cynicism cannot keep pace with the headlines."
Question: If actuarials can predict death and health rates so that insurance companies can be profitable, could not anyone on the face of this earth predicted the pension mess when companies coasted on the 90's stock market? I say the powers that be knew and planned for this, and, with deliberate malice and aforethought, screwed folks out of their retirements.
Class warfare, indeed.
"At the end of 2001, 261 companies had $111 billion less in their plans than they needed to meet their obligations, reports the PBGC..." "The true shortfalls are probably worse, because shifty accounting can mask a loss."
"Between September and December, more money went into pension plans than in the past 10 years," (puts into question the notion U's plans were "fully funded" doesn't it?)
"While corporations have to fund for pension benefits already promised, they don't have to keep those benefits going. So they're solving their problems by converting....to cash balance plans."
"The Treasury put a moratorium on conversions to cash-balance plans in 1999, when older workers shouted that they were unfair.Last month the plans got a green light.... About 500 companies already offer them, and many more are in the pipeline."
"Note that pension cutbacks are strictly for peons. Halliburton Oil gave CEO Dick Cheney early-retirement benefits....even though he hadn't earned them."
dio's comment - "cynicism cannot keep pace with the headlines."
Question: If actuarials can predict death and health rates so that insurance companies can be profitable, could not anyone on the face of this earth predicted the pension mess when companies coasted on the 90's stock market? I say the powers that be knew and planned for this, and, with deliberate malice and aforethought, screwed folks out of their retirements.
Class warfare, indeed.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/16/2003 10:35:52 AM chipmunn wrote:
I am only reporting what I hear and see and I have never seen so much pilot outrage at what has occurred this week.
The pilot group fully recognizes the pain all employees have obtained, but nobody is being asked to take a third cut except the pilots.
------------------------------------------------------------
Chip,
IAM fleet and CWA took the third round of cuts (pensions) long before anyone else took the first round.
Now, I understand most non-agents didn't, and don't care (that was then, this is now) and many believe that's what agents deserved. But that does not obviate the facts, and one fact is we agents dealt with it. Also, perhaps a bit of support for us back then would have engendered some for you all now. Karma's a b****h sometimes.
I truly do not wish this upon ALPA. But just as we had no control over this, ALPA does not either. The company will force this upon you, BECAUSE THEY CAN.
'Labor friendly' was merely the vaseline.
----------------
On 1/16/2003 10:35:52 AM chipmunn wrote:
I am only reporting what I hear and see and I have never seen so much pilot outrage at what has occurred this week.
The pilot group fully recognizes the pain all employees have obtained, but nobody is being asked to take a third cut except the pilots.
------------------------------------------------------------
Chip,
IAM fleet and CWA took the third round of cuts (pensions) long before anyone else took the first round.
Now, I understand most non-agents didn't, and don't care (that was then, this is now) and many believe that's what agents deserved. But that does not obviate the facts, and one fact is we agents dealt with it. Also, perhaps a bit of support for us back then would have engendered some for you all now. Karma's a b****h sometimes.
I truly do not wish this upon ALPA. But just as we had no control over this, ALPA does not either. The company will force this upon you, BECAUSE THEY CAN.
'Labor friendly' was merely the vaseline.
The pilot group fully recognizes the pain all employees have obtained, but nobody is being asked to take a third cut except the pilots.
------------------------------------------------------------
Is the pilot group suggesting all groups be approached again, or does the pilot group refuse to acknowledge some groups have already coughed up their pensions? If the later, through ignorance or arrogance?
Not intended to be combative. My point is, the sooner we all act in solidarity, the better off we ALL are. The longer we work divided, the worse off we ALL will be. ALPA needs support from the rest of us. The rest of us need support from ALPA. That has never been the case at U, and we ALL are now paying the price.
And for those who think this is pinko, lefty think, I counter with Lech Walesa. His SOLIDARITY brought down a communist regime.
There is a reason 'The Three Musketeers' lives in our hearts.
All for one, one for all.
------------------------------------------------------------
Is the pilot group suggesting all groups be approached again, or does the pilot group refuse to acknowledge some groups have already coughed up their pensions? If the later, through ignorance or arrogance?
Not intended to be combative. My point is, the sooner we all act in solidarity, the better off we ALL are. The longer we work divided, the worse off we ALL will be. ALPA needs support from the rest of us. The rest of us need support from ALPA. That has never been the case at U, and we ALL are now paying the price.
And for those who think this is pinko, lefty think, I counter with Lech Walesa. His SOLIDARITY brought down a communist regime.
There is a reason 'The Three Musketeers' lives in our hearts.
All for one, one for all.
OP
chipmunn
Guest
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #75
I am only reporting what I hear and see and I have never seen so much pilot outrage at what has occurred this week.
The pilot group fully recognizes the pain all employees have obtained, but nobody is being asked to take a third cut except the pilots.
Every pilot realizes 4,700 ALPA members on average have given more in pay, benefits, and pensions than every US Airways employee. The MEC and rank-and-file sentiment is growing that if the company is going to seek another round of cuts, they must do it to all employees and terminate everybody's pension plan. Many ALPA members believe that would be fair, for all employees to take further concessions just like the pilots are being asked.
In regard to Pitguy's comment of "Now as for the pilots walking off the job because it is no longer worth their while to work here resulting in the company shutting down. That will never happen." Pitguy, don't be so sure and confident in your statement because as a moderate I am not.
In my opinion, ALPA will not buy off on the proposed pension changes; therefore, the company or the PBGC will have to "distress terminate" the plans, at which time this would transition from a "friendly" to an "unfriendly" labor restructuring. If this occurs, things could get very ugly and difficult around here for all employees, while pilots look for other employment at international carriers whose pay and benefits now exceed US Airways.
The jobs are there with better pay and benefits than US Airways offers. The only difference is the current retirement plan. Trust me, I know.
Again, don't "shoot the messenger" because I am only reporting what I hear from the MEC and key rank-and-file members, who I communicate with on a daily basis.
It may be the only way out of this mess for all employees is for a legislative solution, the company to change the PBGC's mind(s), or for an acceptable solution to the pilot's that makes the ALPA retirement plan whole.
Chip
The pilot group fully recognizes the pain all employees have obtained, but nobody is being asked to take a third cut except the pilots.
Every pilot realizes 4,700 ALPA members on average have given more in pay, benefits, and pensions than every US Airways employee. The MEC and rank-and-file sentiment is growing that if the company is going to seek another round of cuts, they must do it to all employees and terminate everybody's pension plan. Many ALPA members believe that would be fair, for all employees to take further concessions just like the pilots are being asked.
In regard to Pitguy's comment of "Now as for the pilots walking off the job because it is no longer worth their while to work here resulting in the company shutting down. That will never happen." Pitguy, don't be so sure and confident in your statement because as a moderate I am not.
In my opinion, ALPA will not buy off on the proposed pension changes; therefore, the company or the PBGC will have to "distress terminate" the plans, at which time this would transition from a "friendly" to an "unfriendly" labor restructuring. If this occurs, things could get very ugly and difficult around here for all employees, while pilots look for other employment at international carriers whose pay and benefits now exceed US Airways.
The jobs are there with better pay and benefits than US Airways offers. The only difference is the current retirement plan. Trust me, I know.
Again, don't "shoot the messenger" because I am only reporting what I hear from the MEC and key rank-and-file members, who I communicate with on a daily basis.
It may be the only way out of this mess for all employees is for a legislative solution, the company to change the PBGC's mind(s), or for an acceptable solution to the pilot's that makes the ALPA retirement plan whole.
Chip
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