Pilot Pension Progress?

[savyinvestor]

Oldie, Personal attacks seem to be a pilot favorite when someone disagrees with them. As for being an emplyee of U or for that manner any airline the answer is "no". I just don't believe your problem should have a legislated solution and apparently the senate doesn't either. I will conntinue to contact members of the finance committee that voted "no" and encourage them to continue their opposition. I do hope you have a pension, but since your company is bankrupt{in case you haven't noticed} the benefit should be reduced and negotiated between ALPA and U. Thats all there is to it. Now if you want to go into all the badgering you and Munn gave the other labor groups then we would need to start another thread. By the way, I'm far from destitute and although I miss my job dearly as a business consultant I really don't have to work anymore. Haven't you noticed I post anytime am or pm? You see I worked becaused I loved my job not because I needed it. I like you I assume have enough stashed away to live quite comfortably. The difference is I wouldn't put others out of work for my own personal gain.Savy

 

[ClueByFour]

You guys slay me.

"Hey--a millitary guy makes twice what a regional F/O makes--waaaaaaaaaaaaa." No #%@$.

It is almost amusing to see you guys try to justify what a mainline guy makes. I'll say it again--without a "white collar" union stranglehold on "labor," the curve never would have gotten as far as it has.

Oldie--if you know a guy leaving U to return to duty, and he's is going to make more money, it appears that the situation has finally corrected itself.

Bottom--not that it really matters what I do (another favorite pilot talking point--"you don't have an ATP and a PhD in economics--you can't possibly know what you are about!!"), but since you asked-

I run an enterprise communications department within the IT organization of a Fortune 500 company. So, all I have to do is make sure that about 10k people worldwide can make a phone call and get data access wherever they happen to be, 24x7,365. And, I've got my private+instrument, and was working on my multi before the economy tanked and took my time and a large chunk of my disposable income with it. Not that it matters. You choose to attack me instead of my message because you can't effectively counter the message. It's a common thing....

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 1/24/2003 10:42:33 AM autofixer wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 1/24/2003 10:36:44 AM ITRADE wrote:

Well, compare the airline pilot pension issue with the steelworker pension issue.

I don't think the steelworker issue is quite resolved, and I get the feeling that folks are going to have more sympathy to a retired steelworker in Altoona rather than a pilot with a house on the golf course out side of West Palm.
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ITRADE, That is a sterotypical coment. I expected better from you.
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Really? Why?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/24/2003 10:05:25 PM savyinvestor wrote: [BR][BR]Oldie, Personal attacks seem to be a pilot favorite when someone disagrees with them. As for being an emplyee of U or for that manner any airline the answer is "no". I just don't believe your problem should have a legislated solution and apparently the senate doesn't either. I will conntinue to contact members of the finance committee that voted "no" and encourage them to continue their opposition. I do hope you have a pension, but since your company is bankrupt{in case you haven't noticed} the benefit should be reduced and negotiated between ALPA and U. Thats all there is to it. Now if you want to go into all the badgering you and Munn gave the other labor groups then we would need to start another thread. By the way, I'm far from destitute and although I miss my job dearly as a business consultant I really don't have to work anymore. Haven't you noticed I post anytime am or pm? You see I worked becaused I loved my job not because I needed it. I like you I assume have enough stashed away to live quite comfortably. The difference is I wouldn't put others out of work for my own personal gain.Savy----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]You're trying to put over 30,000 people out on the streets. Don't give me that garbage. Then you say that you aren't affiliated with U, but you miss your old job. Well, I guess I hit the nail on the head, didn't I? You are VERY transparent, and in ANY debate my side would win on this issue. I still think that, while there may be no exception for U, there may well be an industry or nation wide exemption, allowing more liberal funding requirements for pensions. It will either be that, or THOUSANDS of companies and corporations will be IN THE SAME POSITION, and just dump ALL of their corporate responsibilities on the federal government. Even the republicans know that would be a MAJOR MISTAKE, driving deficits WAY UP.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 6:43:18 AM ClueByFour wrote:
[P]You guys slay me.[BR][BR]"Hey--a millitary guy makes twice what a regional F/O makes--waaaaaaaaaaaaa." No #%@$.[BR][BR]It is almost amusing to see you guys try to justify what a mainline guy makes. I'll say it again--without a "white collar" union stranglehold on "labor," the curve never would have gotten as far as it has. [BR][BR]Oldie--if you know a guy leaving U to return to duty, and he's is going to make more money, it appears that the situation has finally corrected itself.[BR][BR]Bottom--not that it really matters what I do (another favorite pilot talking point--"you don't have an ATP and a PhD in economics--you can't possibly know what you are about!!"), but since you asked-[BR][BR]I run an enterprise communications department within the IT organization of a Fortune 500 company. So, all I have to do is make sure that about 10k people worldwide can make a phone call and get data access wherever they happen to be, 24x7,365. And, I've got my private+instrument, and was working on my multi before the economy tanked and took my time and a large chunk of my disposable income with it. Not that it matters. You choose to attack me instead of my message because you can't effectively counter the message. It's a common thing....[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]Especially when the point you are trying to make is negative and the points you use to justify it is TOTAL LIES, mainly due to the fact that you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. If you don't want to LOOK FOOLISH, then you should argue topics about which you have a clue. I was just settinf the record straight, and pointing out that MANY on this board are representing their opinions as fact (as you did), even though they aren't even close. I would bet that MOST Americans have no idea how little airlines pay their RJ and commuter pilots, and the general population wants THE BEST PILOTS THEY CAN AFFORD. That's the fact! And you know what? An instrumnent and commercial license in this business is the equivalent of moving up from the tricycle to the two-wheeler with training wheels. I had those when I was 18, paid for out of my own pocket AS A COLLEGE STUDENT. I still had to get over 3,000 hours and 8 years in the military to QUALIFY for an airline pilot job (other than commuters). So if you want to cry, go ahead, but your credentials don't impress me. Especially since I now know how little you understand about the airline pilot career field.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 1/24/2003 2:09:00 PM eolesen wrote:

I've always found it hard to understand how commercial pilots are able to justify in their mind being worth more than the pilot of a B-52 or B-1 (able to kill millions of people instantaneously...), a F-18 (landing on a postage stamp at night), or the pilot of Air Force One. I suppose none of those pilots consider themself highly skilled professionals? They certainly have a lot more day to day responsibility!...

What's a military pension worth for a career pilot?...
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[/blockquote]

Well if we are going to use that comparasion then lets compare what the President of the United States makes compared to corporate CEO's. Is it right that a corporate CEO who has 100,000 employees earns more than the President of the United States who governs (I was going to say serves, but I just couldnt)300,000,000 people? If you have a hard time figuring out why Commercial Pilots should make more than thier counterparts in the government then how do you reconcile this inequity? A commercial pilot may make as much as 10 times what a pilot in the military makes but he will do so for only a few years because it takes a long time to get there. There are corporate executives that make not ten times what the President makes but a hundred times what the President makes. Pilots negotiate with the company, not usually pilots for thier contracts, CEOs however usually have thier compensation determined by a compensation committee, made up of people who have in interest in seeing CEO pay go up.

 

[Bob Owens]

On 1/24/2003 8:35:09 PM ClueByFour wrote:

Here's the thing about commercial (mainline) pilots' compensation--

Were it not for the union and the RLA which is _heavily_ slanted toward the employee (sorry, I can't call a mainline pilot "labor" with a straight face), the market would _never_ pay as much as it does for an airline pilot.

It would probably pay something closer to what the Air Force and Navy guys bring in.


Heavily slanted towards the employee? Have you ever worked under the RLA? Obviously not. Try backing up that claim.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 1/24/2003 5:55:00 PM willyloman wrote:

For your information, USAirways employs a number of pilots who are physicians. Also quite a number of attorneys, MBA's, engineers, architects, biologists, teachers, geologists, etc. etc. etc. Most pilots have advanced degrees. Any argument, by the way, that pilots will be unable to find other employment if this airline sinks, is a foolish argument.

As to skill level, most of the pilot bashers seem to think that people of varying degrees of skills should be compensated the same. It reminds me of the time my wife was hospitalized and we heard an LPN complain, while emptying bedpans, that she should be paid as much as "those doctors," because they work in the same hospital. You non-pilot whiners on this site would make ideal citizens for a Soviet Union type society.
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[/blockquote]

One thing that you fail to realize is that pilots get what they get through "collective" bargaining. Pilots not in a Union (a "collective" or commune of pilots) tend to make much less.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 1/25/2003 6:43:18 AM ClueByFour wrote:

You guys slay me.

"Hey--a millitary guy makes twice what a regional F/O makes--waaaaaaaaaaaaa." No #%@$.

It is almost amusing to see you guys try to justify what a mainline guy makes. I'll say it again--without a "white collar" union stranglehold on "labor," the curve never would have gotten as far as it has.

Oldie--if you know a guy leaving U to return to duty, and he's is going to make more money, it appears that the situation has finally corrected itself.

Bottom--not that it really matters what I do (another favorite pilot talking point--"you don't have an ATP and a PhD in economics--you can't possibly know what you are about!!"), but since you asked-

I run an enterprise communications department within the IT organization of a Fortune 500 company. So, all I have to do is make sure that about 10k people worldwide can make a phone call and get data access wherever they happen to be, 24x7,365. And, I've got my private+instrument, and was working on my multi before the economy tanked and took my time and a large chunk of my disposable income with it. Not that it matters. You choose to attack me instead of my message because you can't effectively counter the message. It's a common thing....
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[/blockquote]

I'm not a pilot but when it comes to compensation the pilots left themselves very vulnerable to criticism in times like these. The fact is that those big numbers you see are only earned by a small group of pilots. Pilots would have been better off bringing the bottom up and the top down instead of gambling thier careers on the success of the carrier. Over their lifetimes they would end up earning more. If the starting wage were 80k and the max was 120K with a definite progression they would not be as vulnerable to attacks and over thier lifetime they would probably earn more. The system they have in place where the guys who are up and down all day flying the smaller, less sophisticated aircraft get the least while those that fly the long hauls with the most sophisticated equipement get the most by far is counterproductive. It reinforces the pilots dependency and commitment to the carrier because his condition and postion are entirely dependant on the carriers survival. Because the pay rates vary so much and the demise of the company pretty much means the elimination of ever getting to that coveted position in the left seat of the biggest thing they operate pilots will usually agree to just about anything to keep the carrier flying. Someone such as ClueByFour has no idea of the seniority system, most dont realize that the biggest benificiary of the system, with the pilots having the most extreme example, is the airlines themselves. How often do you see workers in other industries agree to massive pay cuts over long periods of time like you do in the airline industry? The rhetoric hides the truth, while being pictured as militant by the press and various groups acting in the interests of the industry airline workers, because of the fear of the loss of seniority have consistantly agreed to concessions.

Isnt it strange how the airlines claim that they have no money yet they can fund lobbying for S1327?

 

[Bob Owens]

Oldie but goodie;
Who says that pilots cant continue in thier careers past 60? I was in Marathon a few years back and this old timer was selling air tours of the Keys. He was still making a living flying airplanes.
I agree that the pilots should fight for what was promised to them but a few months back there were a lot of pilots chastizing mechanics for not being willing to give up what was promised to them. Mechanics dont have that Golden Lining or six figure salary waiting for them, chances are they will work until they are 67, and not sitting in the left seat but humping tires and brakes out in the cold. They make just as much of a sacrifice for thier careers as pilots do. They have families also. Few have the time to advance thier education because just providing takes up most of thier time. Few mechanics only work one job, fewer mechanics housholds can live on one income. While I'm not in complete agreement with Piney he does make some valid points. Dont bother with the sympathy angle, pilots had none for the mechanics a few months back, better to go for the "you are next" angle. PATCO tried to use it back in 83 and ALPA pretty much ignored them, hopefully you guys will have better luck. You reap what you sow.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 837 AM PineyBob wrote: [BR][BR]When you percieve yourself as being at the top of the "pecking order" as most pilots I have met seem to, then it stands to reason that when your opinions are challenged you do what most animals do. They "mark" their territory by urinating on it. See a paralell going on with ALPA and anyone who questions their motives? I do! Watch the personal attacks against me now. They will be intense! A "steady stream" warm and yellow. (nice visual don't you think)[BR]I posed a list of questions earlier on for the ALPA to answer and to date no one has bothered to respond from the pilot community. Why not? I didn't use big words like some posters do? Or did you find the answers to be so self serving that you knew in your hearts that your position was/is selfish? C'mon I'm ready for ya! Defend your position from any viewpiont. Explan to the average Joe and Jane how you deserve their sympathy and support! I'll be waiting but not holding my breath. ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Piney,[BR]I don't remember the questions. Probably because I tend to just "skip over" rhetorical, nonsensical statements, which is probably what they were. ALPA pilots ARE PROFESSIONALS, with as much education and experience as any doctor or lawyer by the time they get to the mainline. That's the truth. Most had opportunities to pursue other endeavors (some are, even while being pilots), but chose this profession for many personal reasons. One of those reasons was the concept of financial security offered by the pension plan. That, therefore, is a "condition of employment", something that caused a person to accept the position in the first place. Now, all the other groups (who are mistaken if they think that their pensions will go untouched in this) are advocating the liquidation of the ALPA pension. ALPA's motives are clear. To protect the financial security of it's approximately 6,000 members (including current furloughees), something that WAS PROMISED TO THEM by the company in exchange for devoting their lives to service for this company. Pilots have families just like you may have, with all the expenses: college, medical, dental, etc. That go, along with that. We want to be able to support our families in our retirement (which comes relatively quickly, since BY LAW we must retire at age 60), especially since pilots don't have the option to continue their careers past retirement age.

 

[savyinvestor]

Calm down Oldie. I know the truth hurts. For whats its worth I was in the Insurance Industry responsible for insuring high profile individuals: Presidents, athletes, TV & Movie personalities. This developed large premiums and large commissions for yours truly. By the way, I did this without endangering anyone elses' job. I sleep well at night do you? Savy

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Auto,[BR]I appreciate your perspective, but I'm here because I want to be. I already have other things working outside of this company, so leaving would not be a problem. [BR][BR]Bob O,[BR]You really should get back to worrying about AMR, as they appear to be next in line at the "chapter 11 show". Pilots can fend for themselves. And, you know what? Me and most of my compatriots don't give a rat's patoot what happens to anybody else's retirement. But we'll fight tooth, nail, lawyer, and congressman anybody that tries to take ours. This situation may well accelerate rapidly right to chapter 7. If that's the case, so be it. THe pilot group has led the effort to save this place, and the company knows it.

 

[BottomFeeder]

B.O. & Pine Cone


That is the personal attack you are waiting for.
HA HA HA HA HA

NOW THE REAL STUFF
It is funny how one can avoid the question by shifting the focus to a hot spot. Oldest one in the book. Nice try, some and mirror thing.


If you what to be a expert then you need to hang out your credentials. Since you failed to, I asked and now you are offended.


So where is the MBA and where is it from? Where is the material to back up your theory? The PVT INST thing does not make you an expert. The office mgr position helps but still no facts to support the THEORY.

IF YOU MAKE STATEMENTS WITHOUT SUPPORT THEN IT IS AT BEST AN UNEDUCATED OPINION.

 

[autofixer]

Oldie, The best thing to do is get away from U. Make your own way. It is never too late. It is obvious that most pilots will now have to work after age 60, so why not work for yourself. The best part of selfemployment, is freedom. Freedom on any given day to do nothing, or work hard. A side benefit is a real and tangable retirement--you build up and sale your business--that will make the pilots' defined retirement pale in comparison. You also do not have to put up with a hostile work group, you just point to the door.

You will never get your point across to any of this group. As a mechanic's wife--a friend, I thought-- once told me over a decade ago, "I don't want to understand." And as a side issue, that mechanic told me he made $96,000 last year; that is pretty close to 6 figures, don't you think?