Pension underfunding...how did it occur

[chipmunn]

Diogenes:

If the majority of the people think like you do, I suggest you fill out your unemployment claim and obtain private medical insurance.

Chip

 

[Biffeman]

[BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/28/2002 1:43:38 PM chipmunn wrote: [BR][BR]Biff:[BR][BR]Biff said: And you also forget that most employees work a 40 hour work week, that is work hours with two days off, not three and four day trips and have three and four days off everyweek.[BR][BR]Chip comments: Biff, this is a mischaracterization of a pilots schedule. Each pilot has a different schedule and its important to note the FAA provides flight time and duty limits. Furthermore, I can tell you point blank it is no fun with a reduced safety margin if a pilot has to fly tired.[BR][BR]Regardless, my schedule during the past three weeks was:[BR][BR]December 7 & 8 - Recurrent Ground School in CLT then I commuted to DCA for my trip the nest day, December 9.[BR][BR]December 9 through 12 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.[BR][BR]December 12 & 13 - DCA layover on the 12th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 13th.[BR][BR]December 14 - off[BR][BR]December 15 - Commute to DCA and layover for trip positioning.[BR][BR]December 16 through 19 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.[BR][BR]December 19 & 20 - DCA layover on the 19th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 21st.[BR][BR]December 21 - off[BR][BR]December 22 - Commute to DCA and layover for trip positioning.[BR][BR]December 23 through 26 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.[BR][BR]December 26 & 27 - DCA layover on the 26th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 27th.[BR][BR]Biff, during the pat three weeks I have had two days off where I was free of work. Granted I have elected to commute, but that is so I do not sustain another pay loss and that has contributed to my time away from home.[BR][BR]During the past six months the pilot group has sustained a 26 percent pay loss, Airbus pilots lost their Group 2 override pay (in my case a 5 percent pay loss), and on January 1 the pilots take another 8 percent pay loss. For pilots who fly primarily A321 trips, that is a 39 percent pay loss. In addition, if war breaks out with Iraq or there is another terrorist attack the pilots would take another 5 percent pay loss for a total A-321 pay loss of 44 percent.[BR][BR]Biff, what's enough in your socialized system? Should pilots be away from home every day possible or should we take another more than a 44 percent pay loss so you do not have to give back more?[BR][BR]What's enough for "socialism" Biff? After all, during the past three weeks I have had two days off with no US Airways flying. To bad pilots are required to have a 24 hour break in base free of duty each 7 days, isn't it Biff. Why not have them gone more so the margin of safety is reduced even more, which undoubtedly would contribute to a higher accident rate. Then would you be happy?[BR][BR]Or maybe I should bid reserve so I do not have to commute, I can sustain another another 15 percent pay loss, and then instead be a short call reserve, responsible for a 90 minute "call out" all but 11 days per month.[BR][BR]Chip [BR][BR]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Chip you chose to commute that is not anyone's fault except your own and if you put on the days you commute there are ten days off in that time span, but you also neglected to post two parity raises of 16% and 17% for a total of 33% over the past two years, so if you take 33%-26%=7% you are still up. Maybe you should live where you fly out of, your commuting days are your own choice. Also I have a good friend who is a A330 captain so dont tell me about scheduling, he takes a trip to LGW at 8PM on a Monday, gets to LGW Tuesday Morning, flies back to CLT on Wednesday and he does not report back to fly to the following Monday. So there is a classic example of time off. [BR][BR]Chip why don't you just post the realities, you and your fellow pilots know that if this company liquidates you will lose your million dollar lump sum payment or $100,000 a year retirement. Your own union bylaws permit your MEC to make deals without your members voting, that is your choice and your union caves in everytime because you have the most to lose, that is plain and simple facts, you can't go find a job anywhere making high five figures or six figures right away. But us peons making $30,000-$40,000 a year will be able to find something sooner or later near our current level. ALPA selling out in 1992 by giving concessions then and having US use that to rape all the non-union employees and take away everything they had and impose near slave like working conditions which in turn is why the Ramp and CSAs unionized so they could try and get back some of the things they company stole from them. In a previous post you said the CWA had a frozen pension, wrong the CWA never had a pension with US. The old PSA teamster had a pension fund frozen and when ramp and csa were non-union they had a small pension frozen, the CWA till this day has no pension and the ramp in January will get the IAM National Pension Fund.[BR]In 1992 your union made a sweetheart deal in order for the pilots to cross the IAM picket line they would pay all pilots regardless if they flew or not. They ground all the fokkers and douglas aircraft, yet every pilot got paid, that is why there is some animosity towards ALPA. Also for how many years did US pay the laid off pilots because of your contract?[BR][BR]We all are adults here with minds capable of making decsions, we all know the consequences if we vote yes or we vote no. We dont need you being Dave and Jerry's Cheerleader. This management team is a farce, they are not labor friendly and never have been. Glass even testified in front of Congress for them to pass a law barring the scope language any pilot's union contract preventing the use or limiting the use of RJs. In his testimony he said it harms small communities because airline pilots contracts hinder the use of RJS. Those are the types of peopel you are dealing with, they don't care about who they use or how they accomplish, their intent is to bust the unions and bring the workers down. How do you like it that everyone in Labor Unrelations got promotions and raises while we face more paycuts and layoffs?

 

[chipmunn]

Biff:

Biff said: And you also forget that most employees work a 40 hour work week, that is work hours with two days off, not three and four day trips and have three and four days off everyweek.

Chip comments: Biff, this is a mischaracterization of a pilots schedule. Each pilot has a different schedule and its important to note the FAA provides flight time and duty limits. Furthermore, I can tell you point blank it is no fun with a reduced safety margin if a pilot has to fly tired.

Regardless, my schedule during the past three weeks was:

December 7 & 8 - Recurrent Ground School in CLT then I commuted to DCA for my trip the nest day, December 9.

December 9 through 12 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.

December 12 & 13 - DCA layover on the 12th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 13th.

December 14 - off

December 15 - Commute to DCA and layover for trip positioning.

December 16 through 19 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.

December 19 & 20 - DCA layover on the 19th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 21st.

December 21 - off

December 22 - Commute to DCA and layover for trip positioning.

December 23 through 26 - A four day 27 hour hard time trip with LAX, ROC, & SEA layovers.

December 26 & 27 - DCA layover on the 26th due to a non-commutable trip and a commute home on the 27th.

Biff, during the pat three weeks I have had two days off where I was free of work. Granted I have elected to commute, but that is so I do not sustain another pay loss and that has contributed to my time away from home.

During the past six months the pilot group has sustained a 26 percent pay loss, Airbus pilots lost their Group 2 override pay (in my case a 5 percent pay loss), and on January 1 the pilots take another 8 percent pay loss. For pilots who fly primarily A321 trips, that is a 39 percent pay loss. In addition, if war breaks out with Iraq or there is another terrorist attack the pilots would take another 5 percent pay loss for a total A-321 pay loss of 44 percent.

Biff, what's enough in your socialized system? Should pilots be away from home every day possible or should we take another more than a 44 percent pay loss so you do not have to give back more?

What's enough of a pilot cut to support your apparent concept for a "socialized" pay and benefit system for you Biff? After all, during the past three weeks I have had two days off with no US Airways flying. To bad pilots are required to have a 24 hour break in base free of duty each 7 days, isn't it Biff? Why not have pilots gone more so the margin of safety is reduced even more, which undoubtedly would contribute to a higher accident rate. Then would you be happy?

Or maybe I should bid reserve so I do not have to commute, so I can sustain another another 15 percent pay loss, and then instead be a short call reserve in base, responsible for a 90 minute "call out" to fly all but 11 days per month.

Chip

 

[diogenes]

[blockquote]
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On 12/28/2002 12:16:25 PM chipmunn wrote:

Diogenes:

If the majority of the people think like you do, I suggest you fill out your unemployment claim and obtain private medical insurance.

Chip


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[/blockquote]
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Let's see, who does that 'my way or the highway' attitude remind me of? Oh yeah, U management. Of course, it's hard to tell where one leaves off and the other starts, with you.

You are typical of that minority subset of pilots who knows it all, and can't stand to think that someone with a smaller W2 may have an equal IQ. Fortunately, I have good relations with most pilots I encounter, so I do not let you color my attitude towards them.

I will make a reasonable decision as free of emotion as possible when the time comes. Your opinion of me or my attitude will not come into play. That's good for you Chip, because if you were the sole consideration, I would surely vote no.

A few years ago, a fellow won a Nobel prize in economics based on the theory of the transparancy of transactions. I will insist on a fully informed membership, not acting on intimidation and scare tactics, to make their decision, and abide by the consequences. I have, and will continue to raise valid questions.

But that's right, you didn't get to vote the last go around, did you?

And FYI, I am hoping for the best, while planning for the worst. I am currently investigating private insurance options, not just for myself, but for my membership. I will post the results here, so that you, too, can benefit from the information, should the need arise.

 

[diogenes]

During the past six months the pilot group has sustained a 26 percent pay loss, Airbus pilots lost their Group 2 override pay (in my case a 5 percent pay loss), and on January 1 the pilots take another 8 percent pay loss. For pilots who fly primarily A321 trips, that is a 39 percent pay loss. In addition, if war breaks out with Iraq or there is another terrorist attack the pilots would take another 5 percent pay loss for a total A-321 pay loss of 44 percent.

Biff, what's enough in your socialized system? Should pilots be away from home every day possible or should we take another more than a 44 percent pay loss so you do not have to give back more?

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If a mainline fleet agent goes express, he will go from $21.66 (pre concessions) to $8. That's about a 60% paycut. Is that socialistic enough? Class envy is a two way street, but it surely is unbecoming to begrudge the peasants their pittance.

 

[Biffeman]

Amen DIO!

 

[autofixer]

I'm free! I'm free! I'm free at last! I just flew my last USAir trip. No more cry babies and spoiled brats.

I guess since the pilots are the root of all evil, when the pension issue is settled, everyone will get their pay cuts back?

 

[Biffeisback]

Ask the ML, AA, TW, US, UA, NW, DL and Vangaurd pilots about finding work.

 

[cavalier]

It seems to me that the only choice left for many groups at U is whether they want furlough and severance pay or not; the jobs will cease to exist no matter what you vote.[BR][BR]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[BR] Are you p[FONT size=2]sychic, clairvoyant or downtrodden? [BR][BR]You must be one of the above, if this is your perception. [BR][/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT]

 

[oldiebutgoody]

NO matter what they think pilots will make more than they do. I was working utility for a nonunion company at a major airport 25 years ago for minimum wage. I did everything U employees do; dumped lavs, loaded and unloaded bags, pushed back airplanes (727s and DC-8s) and even fueled. All for MINIMUM WAGE and NO BENEFITS. Then, I went to college, got a degree (in a very useful field, one in which I could have made FAR MORE than flying airplanes), served almost 8 years in the military, then got an airline job. ALL PILOTS TAKE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR PATHS. You know what? I think that if the company can train your replacement in an afternoon that you SHOULD ONLY BE MAKING MINIMUM WAGE. That's the way I see it, and it looks like the company sees it that way too. And all of you thinking that pilots will take a huge haircut if this thing goes under, think again. Those that want to work in aviation will quickly get hired at the surviving carriers when the economy recovers. Those that don't have many skills that will make them successful elsewhere. It seems to me that the only choice left for many groups at U is whether they want furlough and severance pay or not; the jobs will cease to exist no matter what you vote.

 

[mlt]

Oldiebutgoody,[BR]I can't help but notice that you write with the same venom with which Jerry Glass speaks, any connection?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[blockquote]
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On 12/28/2002 9:01:02 PM cavalier wrote:

It seems to me that the only choice left for many groups at U is whether they want furlough and severance pay or not; the jobs will cease to exist no matter what you vote.

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Are you p[FONT size=2]sychic, clairvoyant or downtrodden?

You must be one of the above, if this is your perception.
[/FONT]
[FONT size=2][/FONT]
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[/blockquote]
Nope, none of the above.
Just restating the obvious. You don't have to believe me, ask your union leadership. Anyone that thinks otherwise is, sadly, out of touch with reality.

 

[cavalier]

Just restating the obvious. You don't have to believe me, ask your union leadership. Anyone that thinks otherwise is, sadly, out of touch with reality.[BR][BR]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[BR] Ok, I will record your words on this date.[BR][BR] Meanwhile, talk to someone who understands you.[BR]

 

[Not_One_More_Cent]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/28/2002 826 PM oldiebutgoody wrote: [BR][BR]NO matter what they think pilots will make more than they do. I was working utility for a nonunion company at a major airport 25 years ago for minimum wage.& I did everything U employees do; dumped lavs, loaded and unloaded bags, pushed back airplanes (727s and DC-8s) and even fueled. All for MINIMUM WAGE and NO BENEFITS. [BR][FONT face=System]Service companies still offer that,5 dollars an hour and all you can steal.just what we need .[/FONT][BR][BR][BR]Then, I went to college, got a degree (in a very useful field, one in which I could have made FAR MORE than flying airplanes)[BR][BR][FONT face=System]Looks like you made a tactical error doesnt it?[/FONT][BR][BR][BR]served almost 8 years in the military, then got an airline job.[BR][FONT face=System]4 years hua? Heard Understood Acknowledged for you wing wipers.[/FONT][BR][BR][BR]You know what? I think that if the company can train your replacement in an afternoon that you SHOULD ONLY BE MAKING MINIMUM WAGE. [BR][FONT face=System]I think you get what you negotiate,is that not what you say when the peons question you? Management could have balked,but they signed off didnt they?[/FONT][BR][BR]That's the way I see it, and it looks like the company sees it that way too.[BR][FONT face=System]I can not wait to hear you complaining when you are waiting to get parked on a ****ty day because none of the 5 dollar wonders want to come outside and get wet.the letters to public affairs should be good too.[/FONT][BR][BR]And all of you thinking that pilots will take a huge haircut if this thing goes under, think again. Those that want to work in aviation will quickly get hired at the surviving carriers when the economy recovers. [BR][FONT face=System]The surviving carriers arent going to want a bunch of 50 year olds with bad attitudes.besides,they all have hundreds of pilots laid off to recall before they even think of taking applications.[/FONT][BR][BR][BR]Those that don't have many skills that will make them successful elsewhere.[BR][FONT face=System]Like yourself with that degree that could have made you much more money than flying airplanes?[/FONT][BR][BR][BR]It seems to me that the only choice left for many groups at U is whether they want furlough and severance pay or not; the jobs will cease to exist no matter what you vote.[BR][BR][FONT face=System]well well well,chip has a protoge.[/FONT][BR]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Be as bitter as you want, but don't put down the employment section of the classifieds. You're gonna need it!