Pilot Pension Progress?

[757fixer]

What a friggrin cry baby!.I miss holidays,I miss birthdays.wha wha wha!.Do you know how many holidays I get off?Any that fall on my day off.In 23 years I've had Christmas off twice.Same for most every major holiday.And on top of that I'm working third shift outside,where the wind chill last night was -35.But they give me an extra 10 cents an hour for that.My point is you knew what the conditions of employeement where when you excepted the job just like the rest of us.Your not the only one making a sacrifice.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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Hey frugal,
Done it, been there, and I'd do it again in a minute. It's not just a job, it's an adventure. And it ain't a raw deal. Airline pilots don't have NEAR the rest requirements that active duty does (military, Air Force at least, don't have to be "gear up" 9 +15 hours after they landed last night). I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about because I've done both. Have you? Doubt it. Also, that 85 hour month means working at least 15 days nowadays. How many hours is that? 15x24=360 and all pilots get paid is for 85. Away from home, missing birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, etc. Pilot's (and F/As) are the best deal airlines have. They only get paid when the wheels are moving. No other groups can claim the same thing. I'm not the one "portraying" anybody as anything. I'm telling it the way it is. Most of today's airline pilots "paid their dues" in the military, flying the missions and training the military pilots of today. I know that because I've done it, and so have MANY of my compatriots. Now, tell me how much more YOU know about military pilots than I do after my 22 + years of military service, followed by an airline career.
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Hi Oldie,

No I haven't done any military or civilian flying. However, if I had all the qualifications and a choice, I would choose civilian pilot career in a heartbeat. And I think the vast majority would chose the same also. Heck, even with 15 days of work away from home etc. it is still a good work schedule and the compensation is still good even after the concessions.

I'm not saying a civilian pilots job is a piece of cake, but there is no way a military pilot has it better or easier not only in terms of pay but also work conditions (bad weather vs. anti-aircraft guns), surroundings (a Michigan snowstorm vs. SaudiArabia sandstorm), missions [flying 500 pax vs. 500 lbs bombs) etc.

IMHO, many airline employees (not just pilots) are overpaid. That doesn't bother me since it is what they were able to negotiate and management agreed to it. What should airline employees make? Whatever an airline can afford to pay them. By the looks of it right now, most airlines can't afford to pay their employees.

Anyways, I don't want to digress too much talking about pay / benefits / pensions / concession. I'll just repeat my opinion that there is no way a military pilot has it better/easier than a civilian one. Although I haven't served in the military, the above is my opinion about the military formed by talking to some friends who served (4 in army, 1 in navy, 1 in air force).

 

[oldiebutgoody]

[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/25/2003 10:52:23 PM 757fixer wrote:
[P]What a friggrin cry baby!.I miss holidays,I miss birthdays.wha wha wha!.Do you know how many holidays I get off?Any that fall on my day off.In 23 years I've had Christmas off twice.Same for most every major holiday.And on top of that I'm working third shift outside,where the wind chill last night was -35.But they give me an extra 10 cents an hour for that.My point is you knew what the conditions of employeement where when you excepted the job just like the rest of us.Your not the only one making a sacrifice.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]That's TOTAL BS. When I say miss holidays, etc., I mean NOT EVEN IN THE SAME TOWN. Now, if you choose to commute to work, work doubles, etc, that's up to you. Pilots and F/As don't even get to go home at the end of the day until their trip is over. I'm not crying, just telling it like it is. I chose it and I like doing it, or else I wouldn't be here. Sorry about the temperature, if you don't like your job, then quit! Comparing military and civilian flying jobs is difficult, but both have good points and bad. I only worked over 1 christmas in the military, was able to take leave for the rest. Can't say the same for the airline. I understand that ALL groups (with the exception of the ones in CCY) have to make great sacrifices to be here. You'll note that I NEVER said they didn't. What I object to is all the BS about pilots and F/As only working 80 hours a month. They may only get paid for that, but I assure you they're WORKING a whole lot more than that. You guys don't have a clue!

 

[PITbull]

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On 1/25/2003 12:31:06 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Auto,
I appreciate your perspective, but I'm here because I want to be. I already have other things working outside of this company, so leaving would not be a problem.

Bob O,
You really should get back to worrying about AMR, as they appear to be next in line at the "chapter 11 show". Pilots can fend for themselves. And, you know what? Me and most of my compatriots don't give a rat's patoot what happens to anybody else's retirement. But we'll fight tooth, nail, lawyer, and congressman anybody that tries to take ours. This situation may well accelerate rapidly right to chapter 7. If that's the case, so be it. THe pilot group has led the effort to save this place, and the company knows it.
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And may I add, the pilots have the MOST to gain at U's success going forward.

Let me add that we will fight for our pension, as well!

 

[PITbull]

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On 1/25/2003 525 PM oldiebutgoody wrote:

Bob,
Just for your info, the PATCO strike was an illegal strike. That's what allowed President Reagan to do what he did. ALPA and everyone else, even PATCO, knew this. If ALPA strikes over this, all it would take is 1/4 to 1/2 of the pilots to walk to finish this company. That's why I feel an obligation to speak clearly, loudly and correctly in defense of the pilots and their position. The company may be forced to liquidate all the employees retirement plans, not just the pilot's, if the numbers bear out true concerning shifting numbers for pension funding. Not only that, but the government will hold U's assets in limbo for eons while they decide who pays for what where the pensions are concerned. Even secured and post petition creditors have got to be concerned about this. I hope you're learning something. You may get to use it soon at AMR.
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Oldie,or whoever you are in the "crystal palace,

Why do you say co. may be forced to terminate all the employees pensions? On what premise?

 

[PITbull]

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On 1/25/2003 4:52:38 PM savyinvestor wrote:

Your kidding right? Let's take a vote. All in favor of pilots and there pension and how they are trying to get it resolved please respond in a professional manner. I don't want Oldie to think everyone is against him so think carefully before you respond. Thanks for your participation. Savy
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SAV,

Make no mistake, I am not advocating unions taking "job actions" while we are in bankruptcy. But, I must admit, this new management team needs to understand the meaning of "UNIONISM". Some may say this is not the time; I say, there is no other time. If a group can't collectively take a strong stand at what they "collectively" believe needs protected at all cost for the sake of ITS MEMBERS, than there should be no union. No group should be voicing against that. This management team saw a vulnerable airline with a franchise, and jumped at using their diabolical scheme to save a limping carrier, ALL on the sacrificing of the employees of U for the next 6 long years at least. There was no other "plan"; no marketing strategy, just bankruptcy, and lowering employee cost from mass furloughs, wage reductions so harsh, that many can't pay their bills. This co. has room to screw up now, and still make loads of cash once we emerges from bankruptcy.
This info for those who are on this board and do not work for U.
This management and its investors can not
wait to get out of bankruptcy so they can cash in..no matter how they can make that profit...be it on your wages, workrules, pensions etc. And let's not forget, we got here becasue of a mangement team that make blunderous decisions or lack of, and still got bonses for 2001. And some old management is till getting promoted, as we speak!
THIS CO. OR BOARD OF DIRCTORS WILL NOT LIQUIDATE THIS CO. THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO LIQUIDATE. Management's strategy is soley in INSTILLING FEAR, AND THEY UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN CONDITION LIKE NO OTHER. If the pilots permit this to happen...every single major carrier will go down this road. Behold,we are now witnessing the destruction of the "collective spirit", and this management is loving this. I WILL NOT speak against any one group and tell them they are wrong for taking a position they believe in so strongly. The pilots had worked hard with this mangement in "the best of good faith" and was above and beyond reasonable. I personally was shocked to see how cooperative the pilots were...even to a fault!
We may all be going down this road, if this company is successful in terminating the pilots pensions. I don't believe any defined pension is safe. The co. strategy may be to do this...one at a time, so we all do not mount a defense together. We need to be still. And not bash one another.

I believe, on this board, we all made our points to those few pilots who were so arrogant in their retorhic and unempathetic, that "now, how does it feel to witness that betrayl from this mangement that we told you all along were "union busters" at their finest." And some, still in their arrogance, will not admit it.

U was first...the "domino effect" is commencing!

 

[retread]

No, we get burried with our mistakes.

 

[retread]

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On 1/24/2003 2:09:00 PM eolesen wrote:

I've always found it hard to understand how commercial pilots are able to justify in their mind being worth more than the pilot of a B-52 or B-1 (able to kill millions of people instantaneously...), a F-18 (landing on a postage stamp at night), or the pilot of Air Force One. I suppose none of those pilots consider themself highly skilled professionals? They certainly have a lot more day to day responsibility!...

What's a military pension worth for a career pilot?...
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Most of the military pilots become commercial pilots.

 

[retread]

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On 1/24/2003 12:03:52 PM N421LV wrote:

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On 1/24/2003 11:38:01 AM cavalier wrote:

A guy I know flies the refuelers for the military, the BIG birds making what a RJ F/O makes if he is lucky.

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I find that really hard to believe.
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And our cleaners and pushback crew make more than both. Your point is what?

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

Oldie said...

..the general population wants THE BEST PILOTS
THEY CAN AFFORD...

No, the general population wants to get from point A to point B as cheaply as possible.

If the general population truly wanted "the best pilots they can afford", people wouldn't think twice about paying an extra 10% or 20% for flying a airline with more stringent hiring practices.