ALPA/USAPA topic for week of 1/31 to 2/6

[end_of_alpa]

We are way past pleasantries here AAA73 you and your band of usapa clowns seek to destroy me and my fellow AWA brethren, you already sank the ship now you're sinking the life boat! The worst thing you can do is interfere with fate. Doug Parker interfered with that fate by pulling usair out of defeat when he should have done what ever other carrier did was let it die. That was it's fate. Now we lose two carrires as a result. We are never ever going to submit to usapa EVER!! so you may as well get that thru your thick heads. You are self serving in every way, me me me!!

Law suits, lost potential, lost synergies all add up to Parker and top management setting up golden parachutes, i guess you and your boys missed that move huh? Management even knows this stories ending but you refuse to see it. Don't trick yourself into thinking that this management will deal with usapa to the detriment of 1900 west pilots, that would be almost instant death. PHX is the biggest base in all of LCC, did you catch that partner? PHX IS THE BIGGEST, not PHL, not CLT but PHOENIX!!! So you and your band of merry men continue on with your quest to just run us all over and lets watch the fireworks show together as this one ends with your original fate, UNEMPLOYMENT!!!

Have a good weekend, can you hold them off?? I can

You think we seek to "destroy" you and OUR US Airways pilots brethren? You know, it's interesting how people get attached to something that they supposedly "won". Clowns, huh. Well let me just add this: what has happened to EAST and WEST pilots is something entitlement brings to the picture. Self serving, me, me, me, Funny, but I was thinking the same about you. What is really something now is that, no matter what happens, any merger with an ALPA carrier is going to cause great havoc in the industry as a result of this merger.

Management has NO CHOICE but to negotiate with USAPA as a whole. If you choose to fight it off, we may have to consider fencing pilots in the West and absorbing growth in the East so as to attrite the attitudes you carry in PHX. It's funny how 'revisionist" history keeps cropping up on this forum. I figure the day will come when an irate AWA pilot will take it out on one or more of us in one way or another. Guess we'll have to find out.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The entire piloting profession, congress and the unions disagree with your opinion.

Not sure what evidence you have to back that up. Every union here BUT the pilots union went DOH! Most all unions recognize time in service/DOH. Congress also recognize seniority. Tenure in the learned professions, etc. Where have YOU been?

 

[AWA320]

The TWA debacle is just one more item to add to the list of why we need to change. How is the lawsuit against ALPA going over that?

As far as dictatorships are concerned, you can spout off all you want, the simple fact is, it will only be a one sided union if you and your brethren choose not to participate. Believe me, you will have just as much chance as I do. The choice is yours.

You can cling to your position all you want on seniority. We may win or we may lose, but the simple fact of the matter is, ALPA is toast at USAirways. Lets Vote!!!

There is no spouting on my part just fact. The simple fact is that you and your usapa clan are trying to force your will upon us so there is no "if you choose to not participate"!! It's not in our best interest period! What you did not get to do in here that word again BINDING ARBITRATION you seek to impose with force and we are just supposed to lay down and take it from you right??? I don't think so my man not by your wildest imagination. If alpa is toast the so will be this aircarrier as our two sides will simple destroy the airline and that much is a fact!! You were not harmed by this award as you are in the same place you were on your list that you are on the combined list. This horse crap about how you have been damaged is just that, crap. You are still employed and collecting a pay check and that is at the expenses of those who really gave(west pilots) to keep you employed. We've been there and done that already you've seen all the facts. The west was growing and taking on new ariframes while the east was headed for ch7.

 

[AWA320]

You think we seek to "destroy" you and OUR US Airways pilots brethren? You know, it's interesting how people get attached to something that they supposedly "won". Clowns, huh. Well let me just add this: what has happened to EAST and WEST pilots is something entitlement brings to the picture. Self serving, me, me, me, Funny, but I was thinking the same about you. What is really something now is that, no matter what happens, any merger with an ALPA carrier is going to cause great havoc in the industry as a result of this merger.

Management has NO CHOICE but to negotiate with USAPA as a whole. If you choose to fight it off, we may have to consider fencing pilots in the West and absorbing growth in the East so as to attrite the attitudes you carry in PHX. It's funny how 'revisionist" history keeps cropping up on this forum. I figure the day will come when an irate AWA pilot will take it out on one or more of us in one way or another. Guess we'll have to find out.

What did we win??? No we lost!! The minute this management team went and did what every other carrier knew better and got in bed with USair our careers were put on hold to breath new life into YOU!! We lost when we no more west deliveries took place in order to get you back up and running. So just what did the east bring to the table besides bankruptcy and piss poor attitudes?? Nothing!! It was WEST management that pulled you from the jaws of defeat not east, it was west ideas that saved you not east because truth be told if you were really all that then you would not have been bankrupt in the first place now would you???????

Dave Odell sat at the bottom of the list while WEST MANAGEMENT starting building up the east and recalling pilots that even you never had expectations would ever return! East pilots were leaving usair by the truck load because they were sure that it was done! SWA moved into a market (PHL) to do nothing other than drive the final stake thru your collective hearts and it was Doug Parker that gave you the life line at our expense! You fine examples of human decency not only looked but kicked the gift horse in the mouth.

Don't be FURTHER fooled into thinking that management will just deal with usapa because! You will be met with law suits and to sheild themselves they will most certainly tell you "come back when the suits are settled" set get yourself prepared for much more of LOA93 and or unemployment because it's sure to be a mighty ugly ride from here on out..

 

[prechilill]

Not sure what evidence you have to back that up. Every union here BUT the pilots union went DOH! Most all unions recognize time in service/DOH. Congress also recognize seniority. Tenure in the learned professions, etc. Where have YOU been?

Arbitration is used by every union in the country. Perhaps I am wrong, but to argue that an arbitrated decision leads to an unraveling of civil society such as the poster suggested is pretty comical.
I hope USAPA is successful in the coming vote. It seems our ALPA steering committee is busy negotiating away parts of the Nicoloau award to appease ALPA and the east MEC. If you guys are successful in taking ALPA out of the equation it removes our (west) biggest obstacle in Nicolau implementation. Prater has made no bones about his displeasure with the award because his loyalties clearly rest with the east. I also remember the letter from the ALPA safety chairman, a USAirways pilot, mixing politics with safety by outlining to all pilots how dangerous the Nicolau award is for all of us. Comical. It truly is. The entire reason Prater submitted the list in December anywat was because of the upcoming NMB petition by USAPA. I thank you guys for your efforts. I guess you can call it the law of unintended consequences. Strange how some things work out.
In the end, Nicolau and the transition agreement are here to stay. The law completely supports us on the west. All you can hope to accomplish with USAPA is to change union names. Your dues and assessments will sky rocket, but that is your problem, not mine (or any of us on the west). Both sides will need to ratify a joint contract separately, so whatever illegal concoction USAPA tries to add to any contract won't even make it to a vote. Even if it did, nobody on the west will vote for it. So we would just sit with LOA 93 for you, C2004 for us. Thank god transition agreements don't go anywhere with a change of unions. I guess the legal system really does look out for the little guy.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What did we win??? No we lost!! The minute this management team went and did what every other carrier knew better and got in bed with USair our careers were put on hold to breath new life into YOU!! We lost when we no more west deliveries took place in order to get you back up and running. So just what did the east bring to the table besides bankruptcy and piss poor attitudes?? Nothing!! It was WEST management that pulled you from the jaws of defeat not east, it was west ideas that saved you not east because truth be told if you were really all that then you would not have been bankrupt in the first place now would you???????

It's funny how you pick and choose you position. On the one hand it's YOUR management and on the other it's MANAGEMENT IS AGAINST LABOR! Which is it...you're naivety and lack of understanding of the business world is WHY ALPA NATIONAL CAN'T KEEP UP! We're back to the "who bought who" argument. We were in bankruptcy, you weren't far behind. In the environment we were in just two years ago YOUR airline was in immediate danger like ours. Parker/Kirby said so...oh wait, you only listen to YOUR management when convenient to support YOUR argument. Fuel prices were bringing EVERYONE into bankruptcy...not just US Airways and AWA wasn't far behind, so let's drop this argument.

Dave Odell sat at the bottom of the list while WEST MANAGEMENT starting building up the east and recalling pilots that even you never had expectations would ever return! East pilots were leaving usair by the truck load because they were sure that it was done! SWA moved into a market (PHL) to do nothing other than drive the final stake thru your collective hearts and it was Doug Parker that gave you the life line at our expense! You fine examples of human decency not only looked but kicked the gift horse in the mouth.

Management starting "building" up the East because THAT IS WHERE THE GROWTH IS! Where have you been the past couple of years. ALL MANAGEMENTS are complaining about the high cost of Jet-A. Southwest would be losing money if it wern't for the contract futures in oil they purchased cause they wern't making bottom line money in their flying operations for a while. Gift horse? How about "Let's make a deal". The West got advantages of acquistional growth they would have never had otherwise. AWA DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUY US AIRWAYS! Again, Parker said that. So again, this argument is MOOT!

Don't be FURTHER fooled into thinking that management will just deal with usapa because! You will be met with law suits and to sheild themselves they will most certainly tell you "come back when the suits are settled" set get yourself prepared for much more of LOA93 and or unemployment because it's sure to be a mighty ugly ride from here on out..

Well guess what, then. If your "prediction" of USAPA demise is in the cards the ONLY position that leaves you and I in is WITHOUT UNION PROTECTION. Of course, what good is a union anyway if seniority means nothing. As far as the "ugly" ride I hope you have another job planned because if REVENGE is the course you chart then just remember the old proverb...."revenge is a dish that is best served cold."

 

[end_of_alpa]

Arbitration is used by every union in the country. Perhaps I am wrong, but to argue that an arbitrated decision leads to an unraveling of civil society such as the poster suggested is pretty comical.
I hope USAPA is successful in the coming vote. It seems our ALPA steering committee is busy negotiating away parts of the Nicoloau award to appease ALPA and the east MEC. If you guys are successful in taking ALPA out of the equation it removes our (west) biggest obstacle in Nicolau implementation. Prater has made no bones about his displeasure with the award because his loyalties clearly rest with the east. I also remember the letter from the ALPA safety chairman, a USAirways pilot, mixing politics with safety by outlining to all pilots how dangerous the Nicolau award is for all of us. Comical. It truly is. The entire reason Prater submitted the list in December anywat was because of the upcoming NMB petition by USAPA. I thank you guys for your efforts. I guess you can call it the law of unintended consequences. Strange how some things work out.
In the end, Nicolau and the transition agreement are here to stay. The law completely supports us on the west. All you can hope to accomplish with USAPA is to change union names. Your dues and assessments will sky rocket, but that is your problem, not mine (or any of us on the west). Both sides will need to ratify a joint contract separately, so whatever illegal concoction USAPA tries to add to any contract won't even make it to a vote. Even if it did, nobody on the west will vote for it. So we would just sit with LOA 93 for you, C2004 for us. Thank god transition agreements don't go anywhere with a change of unions. I guess the legal system really does look out for the little guy.

Actually, many use a Board committee to determine a merge of councils. As far as your "reverse psychology" is concerned if you feel that way why don't you vote USAPA?

The law COMPLETELY supports your position however I have YET to see anything YOUR side of the argument has posted that supports your position, other than the numerous "legal" and "union" experts. You will find out who votes for it soon. As for the remainder of your "legal" conclusions, lets just wait for the courts. OK?

 

[prechilill]

The law COMPLETELY supports your position however I have YET to see anything YOUR side of the argument has posted that supports your position, other than the numerous "legal" and "union" experts. You will find out who votes for it soon. As for the remainder of your "legal" conclusions, lets just wait for the courts. OK?

I do not need to "wait for the courts" because the finality of arbitrated agreements is already recognized by the courts. Your own law firm has tip-toed around this issue, but to argue with a mind doped up on emotion is useless. Logic will never prevail, so what is the point?
You will have your vote followed by a brief period of euphoria, and then nothing will change except your dues and assessments. Months, perhaps a few years will pass with LOA 93 and eventually reality will start creeping back into your brains of what the terms "arbitration" and "successors in contracts" mean. Some of you will begin to wonder "was this worth it?"

 

[traderjake]

No, where do you get that the east wants to "steal" any west job?

Please point out where this is so.

Putting an East pilot who could not hold Captain before the merger ahead of a West Captain with a DOH seniority list is stealing his job.

Furloughing a thousand West pilots before you furlough the first East pilot is stealing jobs.

 

[sharktooth]

You are still employed and collecting a pay check and that is at the expenses of those who really gave(west pilots) to keep you employed. We've been there and done that already you've seen all the facts.

You are correct, you have done, and continue doing the same "job".

"still employed and collecting a pay check" and that seems to be all you care about. That is why, historically, A&W has consistently groveled at the bottom with compensation. Management pays you what you expect to be paid. That is why it is so pathetic to hear that you are "still employed and collecting a pay check", any paycheck, I guess would be okay with you. Hope your attitude is an outlier.

 

[sharktooth]

The West got advantages of acquistional growth they would have never had otherwise. AWA DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUY US AIRWAYS!

Heck, AWA didn't have enough pocket change to buy their way out of their government loan, much less buy US.

 

[AWA320]

It's funny how you pick and choose you position. On the one hand it's YOUR management and on the other it's MANAGEMENT IS AGAINST LABOR! Which is it...you're naivety and lack of understanding of the business world is WHY ALPA NATIONAL CAN'T KEEP UP! We're back to the "who bought who" argument. We were in bankruptcy, you weren't far behind. In the environment we were in just two years ago YOUR airline was in immediate danger like ours. Parker/Kirby said so...oh wait, you only listen to YOUR management when convenient to support YOUR argument. Fuel prices were bringing EVERYONE into bankruptcy...not just US Airways and AWA wasn't far behind, so let's drop this argument.

You seem to want to twist and or spin if you will my text. I never ever said management is against labor what I said is why would a managment team deal when it doesn't have to and labor is providing all the cover? You may in fact claim that I am not understanding of the business world and that too is ok but you see I own a business so my understanding if you will may in fact exceed yours! Yes you were in bankruptcy but claiming that we weren't far behind without any financial proof to your claim is moronic. You can sit by an say Doug Parker said this and Doug Parker said that but that means nothing without hard financial data and you bring absolutly zero proof that AWA was anywhere near bankruptcy, NONE. Now do I need to post AAA financials in the days prior to the announcement of the transaction??? Well there you go again, fuel prices at the time of this transaction where below $58/barrel and Kirby made the statement that with their business plan LCC would be poised to make profits with oil above $60. We can't drop this arguement because you haven't a clue about what you are talking about. If you bothered to check you would have found that AWA made profits in the two qts leading up to the transaction with the last one being the highest in AWA history. Bankruptcy not far behind huh?? Yeah right do the research and then come back and we'll talk


Management starting "building" up the East because THAT IS WHERE THE GROWTH IS! Where have you been the past couple of years. ALL MANAGEMENTS are complaining about the high cost of Jet-A. Southwest would be losing money if it wern't for the contract futures in oil they purchased cause they wern't making bottom line money in their flying operations for a while. Gift horse? How about "Let's make a deal". The West got advantages of acquistional growth they would have never had otherwise. AWA DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUY US AIRWAYS! Again, Parker said that. So again, this argument is MOOT!

Ok so if the growth was in the east and you couldn't seem to make it without us which is obvious since you were in back to back bankruptcies. What makes you think that you are entitled to ALLl of the new flying/growth that LCC put together?? Com'on man why? I mean USAir was a complete and utter failure with ZERO growth prior to AWA so now that we have come together you think you deserve it all?? Greed and sense of entitlement, would that explain it?? Again do I need to post AWA financials prior to LCC? You are correct in that AWA didn't have the funds on it's own to pay for this transaction but we did have the borrowing power! AAA could borrow enough to purchase a snikers bar. No one was loaning AAA anymore money as it had become clear that it was throwing good money after bad. Again do some simple research then come back

Well guess what, then. If your "prediction" of USAPA demise is in the cards the ONLY position that leaves you and I in is WITHOUT UNION PROTECTION. Of course, what good is a union anyway if seniority means nothing. As far as the "ugly" ride I hope you have another job planned because if REVENGE is the course you chart then just remember the old proverb...."revenge is a dish that is best served cold."

We may indeed be without union representation but then again whose fault would that be?? You have shown each of us in the west that you are completely unreasonable. There is no trust and probably never will be. You choose this path not us, remember that when its all over.

 

[sharktooth]

Putting an East pilot who could not hold Captain before the merger ahead of a West Captain with a DOH seniority list is stealing his job.

Absolutely not, anyone calling me a scab definitely needs "seasoning" before they get into any left seat, but in any case, I believe that can be taken care of with something called, "conditions and restrictions".

Furloughing a thousand West pilots before you furlough the first East pilot is stealing jobs.

Don't forget about the CEL and MDA pilots that ALPA forgot in a fit of malicious negligence. You seem to be okay with A&W pilots stealing their jobs. Should not they get their rightful place on the list, before a judge rules and gives it to them anyway? in addition to the cash they will get, and ALPA will dutifully assess its membership for? About $250 million worth? If you want to ride that train wreck off the cliff, well, I got your back, way back.

 

[Phoenix]

 

[nostradamus]

But in fairness to Doug Parker, if he hadn't stepped in, a lot of those US Airways people would be out of jobs today."[/b]

Doug parkers showed up clean shaven and sober to the merger, thats it.


Usairways reorganzation plan, click here

The stand alone plan would of worked. Merging Us Airways with drug running, drunk flying, scabbing pilots at AWA, led by a documented alcoholic ceo has proven to be a disaster.