USAPA/ALPA thread of the week 5/31-6/6

[Piedmont1984]

Well there you go again Nostro. Every time I bring up a point that is not in lockstep with your view, you bring up the old PSA issue. That seniority list integration never went to arbitration and was accomplished under the then current ALPA merger policy.

An as far as assets go, how many assets are left from the original USAir? Been to PIT lately? Or PI for that matter, been to BWI lately?

Your arguments hold little if any water, and just because I disagree with you and have genuine skepticism that USAPA can achieve a reordered seniority list, you attack me personally. Maybe you need to spend some time in the cornfield...AGAIN.

I would like to suggest to the moderating team that a thread be opened exclusively for those who are deported to the cornfield. Among the required rules will be that personal attacks and name calling WILL be required.

 

[EastUS]

....... you bring up the old PSA issue. That seniority list integration never went to arbitration and was accomplished under the then current ALPA merger policy.

"..was accomplished under the then current ALPA merger policy." Refresh my memory. Wasn't that done on the rational format of DOH? Umm..and naturally..I suppose it "logically" follows that you'd have been personally fine with things otherwise?. Spare us all...puhleeeaze. Personally...I find it absurd, nay even insane, that any supposed "merger policy" could/should ever be subject to any bizarre political whims of a given moment, whether the moon's in Capricorn, or it's processed on the winter solstice, the ouija board said, etc. Either one has and believes in actual Union principles..or one doesn't...and is otherwise only ever concerned with "What's in it for MEEeeee?" No one can have it both ways on such issues. Either there's a conciousness of the greater good, and rational Union principles..or it's just "All about MEEEE!", and there are no actual principles, nor any semblance of an actual Union involved at any level....period.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That seniority list integration never went to arbitration and was accomplished under the then current ALPA merger policy.

Well, yes. But that is taken out of the context of Feb, 1987, when USAir announced the purchase of Piedmont Airlines. Until that time, USAir had been talking to PSA about a slotted list. The PSA pilots were oh so senior by comparison, that a DOH merger would have been a considerable hit on the USAir pilots. However, before those talks got very far, Colodny announced the PI buyout and the USAir MEC quickly changed their tune regarding PSA. When they realized that a slotting stance with PSA would create precedence, then a slotting with the much larger (than PSA) Piedmont group would really negatively impact the USAir pilots.

They decided to take the relatively smaller hit with PSA by doing a DOH merger with them, then cry precedence for a DOH merger with Piedmont (the aftermath would leave the Piedmont pilots as the most disadvantaged group, while the PSA pilots came out smelling like roses.)

Had the Piedmont merger announcement not happened before the PS/US list had been settled, it almost certainly would have been an arbitrated list with USAir arguing relative seniority (which would have been the best deal for them up to that point.) The reason PSA got DOH with no argument was because the USAir pilot group suddenly had "bigger fish to fry."

 

[N924PS]

"..was accomplished under the then current ALPA merger policy." Refresh my memory. Wasn't that done on the rational format of DOH? Umm..and naturally..I suppose it "logically" follows that you'd have been personally fine with things otherwise?. Spare us all...puhleeeaze. Personally...I find it absurd, nay even insane, that any supposed "merger policy" could/should ever be subject to any bizarre political whims of a given moment, whether the moon's in Capricorn, or it's processed on the winter solstice, the ouija board said, etc. Either one has and believes in actual Union principles..or one doesn't...and is otherwise only ever concerned with "What's in it for MEEeeee?" No one can have it both ways on such issues. Either there's a conciousness of the greater good, and rational Union principles..or it's just "All about MEEEE!", and there are no actual principles, nor any semblance of an actual Union involved at any level....period.

Not all mergers of that era followed the merger policy of the day. Remember The PI-Empire merger?

You can stop pontificating now. Your halo is showing.

 

[EastUS]

Not all mergers of that era followed the merger policy of the day. Remember The PI-Empire merger?

You can stop pontificating now. Your halo is showing.

Thanks..I polished it up especially for you. I'll stick with the notion that one either subscribes to reasoned, and actual principles...or is otherwise, merely a shallow creature of selfish motives. I must note that you didn't have any awesome "come back" to my questioning how thrilled you'd have been, had things not gone DOH for you personally....enough said. Each person has the right and duty to choose their path and beliefs. I see any attempts at having any "Union", or "seniority" based on whimsy, chaos and individual selfishness to be a complete fool's errand. Look how well doing such BS has worked for Alpa, and naturally..just how wonderfully fine this pilot group merger's previously gone under such enlightened ideals..........or was it just "guidelines"? Within any group proceedings I've experienced..following principled fundamentals actually works. "Guidelines? = "What's in for MEEE?"...Not so much.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Not all mergers of that era followed the merger policy of the day. Remember The PI-Empire merger?

You can stop pontificating now. Your halo is showing.

There was more to it than that. Have you bothered to research / talk to former Empire pilots for a more detailed answer? By your post I think not.

Before the buyout was announced ALPA / Empire was starting the process of organizing. At the time everything was on track for Empire to join ALPA. In addition to other organizing efforts at other properties. After the buyout announcement ALPA dropped Empire like a hot potato. Ever wonder why?

It would seem to me that ALPA had an alternate agenda for the Empire pilots. Sacrificial lambs, if you will. Would have loved to be the proverbial fly on the wall during the pre-merger conversations in Herndon. The post merger blitz by ALPA, including the PEX property, was the ALPA threat, "Join us or get treated like Empire". No, ALPA was actively hunting other properties to bring into the fold. By stapling the Empire pilots just played into ALPA's organizing plans to a tee. The slogan, "Look what you get, ALPA merger protections with our policy. Ooops, now "Guidelines". No wonder ALPA didn't get the Empire vote.

Then came the PI merger. And the rest is history. But to twist DOH to suit your argument is disingenuous.

 

[nostradamus]

Crying for the moderator after every other post is not a strength. It takes away from the discussion. You should pm the moderator if you think it is required to have someone looked at.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The ALPA policy has always only applied to two ALPA carriers merging. Empire was not ALPA; in fact, they did not have a legal bargaining representative. Under these circumstance, the law permitted the carrier with the union to dictate the arrangement of seniority. I think the Piedmont MEC handled it shamefully, and it may or may not have been at the behest of ALPA national. You hear the story both ways.

What I was told (and many Empire pilots probably have a different perspective of events) was that ALPA had approached the Empire group on previous occasions to organize and was rebuffed. The Empire pilots may indeed have been finally amenable to ALPA representation and been in the process of organizing under the ALPA umbrella. Here's where the story gets murky.

The ALPA national leadership says that the Piedmont MEC approached them and asked them to halt the organizing efforts on behalf of the Empire pilots so that the Piedmont MEC would have sole control over the integration. The Piedmont MEC members say that ALPA, acting first but in concert with the PI MEC, halted the process to make an example of the Empire pilots who had rebuffed them before. So, the truth is...who knows? It depends on who you ask.

The whole thing is a black eye on ALPA, the Piedmont MEC and unionism, in general. It stunk and at the time I was stunned that something like that could occur. It was my first taste of disillusionment with ALPA, but it certainly was not to be my last.

 

[Strider]

And he's one of the most pleasant, generous men I've ever met and had the pleasure to fly with. He probably had his shirt unbuttoned because he would "give you the shirt off his back" if you needed it.

You should have seen him when we dressed him up as "Baby Huey"...What a hoot... Fraternity thing... Sorry off topic I know.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Just skimmed a copy of the 56 page complaint filed in the Federal District Court for Western North Carolina by USAPA against AWAPPA, 16 named defendants and 100 John Does to be discovered at trial.

I can see why things have gotten REALLY quiet here for now.

(edited by ME)

 

[elixir]

Oh, my...yes, please do.

Got it....


WOW!!!!!!


HooooBoy, this is gonna be BIG.

thanks NYC....

PS, it's a 60' Hatteras based in STT
My brother owns most of it and charters it...I'm a small partner.

 

[luvn737s]

Just skimmed a copy of the 56 page complaint filed in the Federal District Court for Western North Carolina by USAPA against AWAPPA, 16 named defendants and 100 John Does to be discovered at trial.

I can see why things have gotten REALLY quiet here for now.

(edited by ME)

Yes, you've taken to fighting with the moderator and among yourselves. Even when there's no one to talk to and nothing to say you guys can fill up 8 pages. Consistently Priceless!

I know that no one is losing a moments sleep (or a dollars pay) over the Lil' Generals attempt at trimming the force through "friendly" fire. How long did USAPA have to look through the phone book to find a lawyer who would work on contingency? "Little or no money down? We're all over that!". How did he find a law firm that would send their president to talk to him?

I would imagine part of the reason that it's so quiet here is that so many people have to leave for work early enough to find an airline that will carry them. "We know you have choices when you fly, so choose somebody else's jumpseat. Byebye!"

 

[luvn737s]

WOW!!!!!!


HooooBoy, this is gonna be BIG.

By comparison to the expected response, not so much. If you're gonna be fool enough to throw the first punch, it better be your best. This is more like a slap.

By the way, what were the voting results on the referrendum to attack fellow pilots just so you can extort some respect that is unacheivable otherwise? :down:

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yes, you've taken to fighting with the moderator and among yourselves. Even when there's no one to talk to and nothing to say you guys can fill up 8 pages. Consistently Priceless!

I know that no one is losing a moments sleep (or a dollars pay) over the Lil' Generals attempt at trimming the force through "friendly" fire. How long did USAPA have to look through the phone book to find a lawyer who would work on contingency? "Little or no money down? We're all over that!". How did he find a law firm that would send their president to talk to him?

I would imagine part of the reason that it's so quiet here is that so many people have to leave for work early enough to find an airline that will carry them. "We know you have choices when you fly, so choose somebody else's jumpseat. Byebye!"

Ho hum!

Did anybody bring popcorn?

 

[EastUS]

I would imagine part of the reason that it's so quiet here is that so many people have to leave for work early enough to find an airline that will carry them. "We know you have choices when you fly, so choose somebody else's jumpseat. Byebye!"

Despite your deep devotion to the west's "Righteous Postition"!!??, so loudly touted by yourself and others as universally supported throughout the entire industry?...umm...and not too mention loving devotion to Alpa itself?...Hard to imagine......

In truth?...I think that's a buncha' BS in any case, and haven't personally had any trouble, thus far at least, when traveling on other carriers.

Popcorn's on me