USAPA/ALPA thread of the week 5/31-6/6

[sharktooth]

Everyones expectations industry wide have declined, except for yours. You still have a job. You are welcome..

Not everyone's expectations.

Holding management to higher standards than management does for themselves is a time-honored practice of successful corporations. Holding ourselves to higher standards is the essence of professionalism. Set the standards high and strive for them.

Accepting less is a fool's paradise, short-lived and pathetic.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Haven't paid a dime to USAPA, and still flying.[/color]

Russian roulette with a pink slip.
[/quote]


So be it. "Taxation without Representation" ring a bell.

 

[Planemx]

Anyone ever stop to ponder this scenario:

USAPA continues to litigate against AWAPPA as fuel prices soar or remain at current levels.

USAPA essentially prevails in the first round of litigation pending the obligitory appeal.

All the while the above slice of heaven is taking place rancor on both sides builds to the point where the traveler is subject to a situation similar to UA's "Summer of Hell" a few years back. This coupled with fuel costs leads to staggering losses that are unsustainable in even the short term.

US Airways, now desparate to settle with the pilots, offers a pretty good contract or one at least better than what is in place now.

Due to the heightened rancor and borderline outright open warfare, the pilots overwhelmingly REJECT the contract.

US Airways falls out of compliance with their financial covenents and is forced into Chapter 11 protection.

US goes the hardball route and attempts to impose contract on pilots, pilots reject and seek self help. US Airways ceases operations and begins an orderly shutdown.

Anyone see this as the potential end game besides me? How's that for a career expectation?

I'll say no....they haven't. When the dust settles and this house of cards comes crashing down I see the blame game being played until no one can remember who US Airways was.......fade to black.

Sounds like my 5 yr old - it is always someone else's fault.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Or my 16 year old step son.

Based on your observation of pilots and my observation of his conduct I think we've hit on the perfect career for him

Come on Piney! The majority of the pilots are not into the "trash talk" at work that is so prevalent on this forum. This board is the Jerry Springerization of aviation -- it even has a bouncers!

Later,
Eye

 

[nostradamus]

US's Parker shies away from pilot squabble

 

[sharktooth]

So be it. "Taxation without Representation" ring a bell.

Are you being denied representation?

If no one runs for US Senate from the state of Arizona, can the residents claim they have no representation?

Do you have any idea how a democracy works? How about a republic?

You actually must do something other than be a couch potato before you can make any kind of claim about "representation".

 

[sharktooth]

Due to the heightened rancor and borderline outright open warfare, the pilots overwhelmingly REJECT the contract.

US Airways falls out of compliance with their financial covenents and is forced into Chapter 11 protection.

Would US fall out of compliance because the pilots reject a contract?

I see open warfare right now but fail to understand a direct connection to financial covenants.

It seems you are attempting to combine two (separate?) assumptions into one logical progression.

Also, once in Chapter 11, legal self-help would not be available for the run of that kind of protection, only upon exiting.

 

[elixir]

Haven't paid a dime to USAPA, and still flying.[/color]

Russian roulette with a pink slip.

Having just spent some time in the training department, I got to hear some about this...apparently, someone very near the top of the food chain asked USAPA for 10 names, and they'd all be fired...then, next month, 10 more, and they'd be fired as well...and so on...until the point got made.

So, the only thing holding that back is USAPA at this point.

Still feelin' lucky?

 

[EastUS]

Everyones expectations industry wide have declined, except for yours. You still have a job. You are welcome..

My personal "expectations" in life have long been = to: "Hey!...I'm alive today!!...That's pretty darn cool!", and have always found "career expectations" to be proper fodder for laughter.....so "except for yours" doesn't apply in any way.

"You still have a job. " Apparently..you do too..and neither yours nor mine's any doings of each other.

"You are welcome" For what? You didn't do anythng to provide either of our respective jobs, and I'd guess that you'd be quite fine were mine to magically go away. I'm assuming that I wouldn't even be allowed on "your" jump seat, although you can always fly on any aircraft I've the priveledge of commanding, and, should we meet operationally in any way, you'll be accorded properly professional courtesy. I cannot reasonably assume that the reverse would be true.....so...umm...exactly WHAT is it you can possibly imagine that I should thank you for?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Haven't paid a dime to USAPA, and still flying.[/color]

Russian roulette with a pink slip.

Having just spent some time in the training department, I got to hear some about this...apparently, someone very near the top of the food chain asked USAPA for 10 names, and they'd all be fired...then, next month, 10 more, and they'd be fired as well...and so on...until the point got made.

So, the only holding that back is USAPA at this point.

Still feelin' lucky?

I'm not sure I would take much stock of rumors around the training department, but it really does appear to me that the company has embraced the reality that USAPA is here, and ALPA is not. It's unfortunate that some of the more vocal westies have caused that fact to be lost on their comrades.

I don't think the company has asked for 10 names so they could be fired. But Hemenway's unsolicited letter to USAPA last month outlining the company's understanding of the protocol to fire people for non-payment of dues/germane fees should have been a wake up call for the westies. Management has put pilots on notice that THEY recognize USAPA as the legal bargaining agent for all the pilots; it would behoove all the pilots to take note of that. The company wants and needs to move forward and is anxious to get USAPA into the process (see Doug Parker's CLT pilot crew meeting from May.)

Again, I don't think the company is soliciting names of pilots to fire, but once the USAPA process starts forward with billing, they those who end up in arrears will be reported to the company and the company has made it clear that they WILL fire pilots. A small minority of the westies (unfortunately, some who have been in leadership positions) have seen the aftermath of the NMB election as an elementary school game. It's time for the majority of the level-headed professionals in PHX and LAS to wake up to reality. Negotiations for YOUR contract will go forward with or without you; with or without your input; with our without your much sought after representatives. The company is ready; USAPA is ready. Quit playing games and get down to business, or the contract you regret may be your own.

 

[sharktooth]

Having just spent some time in the training department, I got to hear some about this...apparently, someone very near the top of the food chain asked USAPA for 10 names, and they'd all be fired...then, next month, 10 more, and they'd be fired as well...and so on...until the point got made.

Ten names at a time. Would that not be discriminatory? How would one chose which ones would be in the first ten, DOH? That would be flawless.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Ten names at a time. Would that not be discriminatory? How would one chose which ones would be in the first ten, DOH? That would be flawless.

I think we're many months from that happening, since bills have to be sent and time needs to be given for the mail to be received, payments made, bookkeeping chores, late notices mailed, etc. If it come down to it, I doubt any pink slips could even happen before autumn.

The fact is that USAPA may will probably send a single report with all the names of pilots in arrears and refusing payment. It will likely then be up to the company to decide how the letters go out and how the actual terminations are processed. As long as an objective way to line them up is found (by payroll number, DOH, alphabetical, etc.) to begin actual termination proceedings, I think both USAPA and the company are covered.

It really doesn't matter one whit who is first. Once the first few are processed and everyone realizes this is not an elementary school game, the dues protests will die a quick death for 99.9% of the pilots.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Are you being denied representation?

If no one runs for US Senate from the state of Arizona, can the residents claim they have no representation?

Do you have any idea how a democracy works? How about a republic?

You actually must do something other than be a couch potato before you can make any kind of claim about "representation".

As has repeatedly been stated, you have us in numbers- that is your only advantage and also the reason the West will never be represented. I won't pay to sue USAPA and for their defense also.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Haven't paid a dime to USAPA, and still flying.[/color]

Russian roulette with a pink slip.

Having just spent some time in the training department, I got to hear some about this...apparently, someone very near the top of the food chain asked USAPA for 10 names, and they'd all be fired...then, next month, 10 more, and they'd be fired as well...and so on...until the point got made.

So, the only thing holding that back is USAPA at this point.

Still feelin' lucky?

I do.

 

[PA18]

Anyone ever stop to ponder this scenario:

All the while the above slice of heaven is taking place rancor on both sides builds to the point where the traveler is subject to a situation similar to UA's "Summer of Hell" a few years back. This coupled with fuel costs leads to staggering losses that are unsustainable in even the short term.

US Airways, now desparate to settle with the pilots, offers a pretty good contract or one at least better than what is in place now.

Due to the heightened rancor and borderline outright open warfare, the pilots overwhelmingly REJECT the contract.

Bob,

Very interesting scenario, but the above quoted events would never happen -- at least not on the East side.

With regard to a "Summer of Hell", you may remember that the East leadership of the former pilots union -- in one of its rare demonstrations of actual leadership -- suggested that East pilots, in a perfectly legal manner, fly less time than usual for the months of November and December last. This suggestion was inspired by the Northwest pilots, whose similar perfectly legal action gained them some contract improvements.

So what happened?

There was even less open time in November and December than there was in October, meaning that East pilots were ignoring their union leadership and were actually flying more in those months.

As usual, individual selfishness and greed derailed an attempt by the union to acquire some negotiating leverage.

As far as East pilots rejecting a contract, it ain't happened yet (although it has on the West side). All management has to do is sweeten the pot just a little bit, monetarily, enough to get 51% of the East pilots to take the bait, and they will get a contract.

Here is where Parker really screwed up. With very little in terms of improvements -- especially with the former union's management-friendly East MEC and Negotiating Committee still in place -- Parker could have had a contract signed and sealed long before the Nicolau award was rendered.

But no. He chose to stonewall and low-ball.

So now, how much has that tactic actually cost him?