US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[oscarjazz]

Pop quiz:

The October bid shows #3408 as the last active pilot on the east.

How many are on the west? About 1700? 1800?

Question one: Explain what "half" means.

Question two: Show how the west is actually half of the total LCC pilot group. Show your work.

Okay, question for you: How small do they have to be before you can ignore them? So what if it's one third, or one fourth? Is it okay to ignore them then? The point is that a significant part of your pilot group is totally alienated from their union and your response is to send them termination letters. Profiles in courage.

I can't believe that anyone who believes in a union would condone the wholesale abandonment of a large number of pilots.

Call the fraction whatever you want it's not important. If USAPA is a union they will get out there and represent those pilots. If they are just a sham organization, conceived to trample the rights of many of their pilots then they should continue their current course. That's my math.

 

[EastUS]

Okay, question for you: How small do they have to be before you can ignore them?

Good question. I honestly hadn't thought of that option before. Perhaps some experimentation should be performed in order to properly determine that potential.

What's known so far:

1) The west contingent was/is adamantly attempting the total destruction of the union.

2) Most all west posters have clearly stated that they'd cheerfully and immediately cross any USAPA picket line.

3) They've always sided with the company in any union vs company disputes, going so far as to heap ridicule on union responses to the company's earlier abuses of Captain's Authority via the "fuel school" BS.

4) Zero west participation, much less ANY help, has ever been present for addressing any/all greivances, at least that I'm aware of.

5) The west is both adamant and enthusiastic about wanting to see a complete company victory within the forthcoming LOA disputes on the east.

6) The west is routinely denying even the simplest professional courtesy of jumpseat transportation to east pilots.

7) The west, not at all satisfied with higher pay rates and an east-given share of prior profit sharing...even seeks to see what they think they could even possibly steal from east contract payments of the $70 million due the east only, and based entirely on prior east sacrifices.

The list goes on, but that's at least a brief thumbnail sketch.

So...Honestly; I'm all ears here; Just what, if ANY, even remotely possible benefit to union goals and the betterment of the entire pilot group...are these folks EVER going to realistically offer?...regardless of any/all surrounding circumstances? Whenever any individual person or group shows me "who they are"...I believe them.

"How small do they have to be before you can ignore them?" Perhaps you've got something worth considering there. Hmmm...I honestly think that's worth exploring.

 

[nic4us]

The Nic is dead, will never be on the property, the west will be sold off towards the end of the year. or will be Chap 11 again and liquidated. Eveyone knows this keep dreaming though!!

Really? Do you mean that just the West will be chapter 11? I do not see how that is possible. I would think if the company starts selling assets, and breaks the TA fleet mins etc. all accompanying furlough/retention decisions would be based on the Nic, the only system wide seniority list the company has accepted.

Thing is if LCC survives, so does the Nic, regardess of what happens to what you consider former West.

 

[cleardirect]

4) In the exetended wake of the PHX road show....well...you may be hard pressed to find very many east people overly eager to pay personal homage to PHX's famous and proven hospitality.

But wait. Using usapa’s defense from the Addington remedies. What happened before usapa was certified does not matter. So the same logic applies. That road show was before usapa was certified.

No homage required. Simply representation from a union that pretends to represent al pilots. Largest base PHX. Number of visits in 15 months. 1. Where are these tough union leaders? Good leaders bring people to their position. Not continue to preach to the choir.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Largest base PHX.

PHX is also overstaffed and under performing (NO YIELD) compared to any other base aside from LAS.

Tempe's LCC Business Model:

Highest Load Factor + Lowest Yield= ?????


Anyone like to guess the results going forward???

 

[cleardirect]

The Nic is dead, will never be on the property, the west will be sold off towards the end of the year. or will be Chap 11 again and liquidated. Eveyone knows this keep dreaming though!!

Welcome to an alternate reality. It was mentioned before. Could you show your work how that comes about?

Fact. Usapa has been found liable of DFR.
An injunction will be filed that required to use and implement the Nicolau.
LCC is a single company with a single set of assets and liabilities.

 

[cleardirect]

PHX is also overstaffed and under performing (NO YIELD) compared to any other base aside from LAS.

Tempe's LCC Business Model:

Highest Load Factor + Lowest Yield= ?????


Anyone like to guess the results going forward???

Could you point to the corporate filing that breaks down yield by base?

Have any facts or just guesses.

 

[nic4us]

Pop quiz:

The October bid shows #3408 as the last active pilot on the east.

How many are on the west? About 1700? 1800?

Question one: Explain what "half" means.

Question two: Show how the west is actually half of the total LCC pilot group. Show your work.

On the july 2009 seniority list there are 1772 names. Including 142 furloughed 1772-142=1630. There are also some 200 on various LOAs, 1630-200=1430. At the time of merger Odell was #1884, and we hired behind him up to over 1900.

As I recall, but please tell me I am wrong, at the time of merger there was some 2880 active east. If you now have 3408 active, that is an increase of some 500+, while the West has reduced a very similar 470?

If this is true, I will explain "half" to you! "Half" is only 50% of the total number of east pilots that will be furloughed if the company decideds to lay off another 500 pilots.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (Glucose Intolerant @ Jul 11 2009, 09:53 AM) *
PHX is also overstaffed and under performing (NO YIELD) compared to any other base aside from LAS.

Tempe's LCC Business Model:

Highest Load Factor + Lowest Yield= ?????


Anyone like to guess the results going forward???

Could you point to the corporate filing that breaks down yield by base?

Have any facts or just guesses.

There's really no point in any argument here. Should bases be downsized in the future...they will, and, as you seem completely comfortable with PHX remaining as it is...well...again; why argue?

 

[Metroyet]

Good question. I honestly hadn't thought of that option before. Perhaps some experimentation should be performed in order to properly determine that potential.

What's known so far:

1) The west contingent was/is adamantly attempting the total destruction of the union.

2) Most all west posters have clearly stated that they'd cheerfully and immediately cross any USAPA picket line.

3) They've always sided with the company in any union vs company disputes, going so far as to heap ridicule on union responses to the company's earlier abuses of Captain's Authority via the "fuel school" BS.

4) Zero west participation, much less ANY help, has ever been present for addressing any/all greivances, at least that I'm aware of.

5) The west is both adamant and enthusiastic about wanting to see a complete company victory within the forthcoming LOA disputes on the east.

6) The west is routinely denying even the simplest professional courtesy of jumpseat transportation to east pilots.

7) The west, not at all satisfied with higher pay rates and an east-given share of prior profit sharing...even seeks to see what they think they could even possibly steal from east contract payments of the $70 million due the east only, and based entirely on prior east sacrifices.

The list goes on, but that's at least a brief thumbnail sketch.

So...Honestly; I'm all ears here; Just what, if ANY, even remotely possible benefit to union goals and the betterment of the entire pilot group...are these folks EVER going to realistically offer?...regardless of any/all surrounding circumstances? Whenever any individual person or group shows me "who they are"...I believe them.

"How small do they have to be before you can ignore them?" Perhaps you've got something worth considering there. Hmmm...I honestly think that's worth exploring.

Honestly, what the HELL did you think was going to happen? Did you expect to be warmly welcomed as liberators? The were warned in no uncertain terms that this was going to happen. I'd say the West had turned the tables and has been wildly successful in holding USAPAs head underwater. That fact along makes me proud.

 

[EastUS]

"So...Honestly; I'm all ears here; Just what, if ANY, even remotely possible benefit to union goals and the betterment of the entire pilot group...are these folks EVER going to realistically offer?...regardless of any/all surrounding circumstances? Whenever any individual person or group shows me "who they are"...I believe them."

I'd say the West had turned the tables and has been wildly successful in holding USAPAs head underwater. That fact along makes me proud.

I rest my case......

 

[nycbusdriver]

Okay, question for you: How small do they have to be before you can ignore them? So what if it's one third, or one fourth? Is it okay to ignore them then? The point is that a significant part of your pilot group is totally alienated from their union and your response is to send them termination letters. Profiles in courage.

I can't believe that anyone who believes in a union would condone the wholesale abandonment of a large number of pilots.

Call the fraction whatever you want it's not important. If USAPA is a union they will get out there and represent those pilots. If they are just a sham organization, conceived to trample the rights of many of their pilots then they should continue their current course. That's my math.

Well, there you go. Get called on a misstatement of fact, so let's reframe the question (rather than answer it) to make it seem true.

There is no question that the west pilots make up a significant portion of the LCC pilot group. I never said they didn't. If you actually READ what I said, my implication is that they are no where near HALF of the pilot group, as the original poster misstated.

How small does the number be to be ignored? I am all for ignoring anyone who doesn't pay dues or fees. I don't care how large or small that number is, or whether the "protester" is east or west. A large portion of west pilots DESERVE to be ignored for that very reason. A small percentage of east pilots deserve the same.

 

[luvthe9]

Really? Do you mean that just the West will be chapter 11?

No I mean ALL of us and pretty much thanks to YOUR management thats running this airline into the ground, most of the east pilots carreers are about over in several years anyway I do feel bad for young kids out west if this place tanks!!

 

[nic4us]

No I mean ALL of us and pretty much thanks to YOUR management thats running this airline into the ground, most of the east pilots carreers are about over in several years anyway I do feel bad for young kids out west if this place tanks!!

Thanks for clearing that up, your original post did not make sense to me in a seperate chp 11 sense.

The kids will be alright, its the middle aged folks on both sides that are really in this fight, have the most to lose and the least able to recover.

 

[luvthe9]

The kids will be alright, its the middle aged folks on both sides that are really in this fight, have the most to lose and the least able to recover.

We don't have "middle aged folks" over here I think the average age is 53.