🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟

Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁

US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

Status
Not open for further replies.
OK, does someone want to tell me that I am full of hose dung now about the theory that USAPA is trying to spend AOL into the ground?

After Judge Wake made his comment in open court on July 7th, specifically that:

"We're dealing with a history of proven pervasive violation of duty, and therefore, it's necessary for the Court to come up with a rule, with a remedy that will restore the neutral and even-handed motivations to the process and, in particular, to the ratification process.

Now, I haven't heard anything that would change my mind to the question."

Today USAPA filed DEFENDANT’S NOTICE OF, AND RENEWED MOTION FOR, JUDGMENT AS A MATTER OF LAW, PURSUANT TO RULE 50( B ). That's right boys and girls, they think they are entitled to judgment as a matter of law after the jury trial, but more specifically after Judge Wake's comments two days before they filed their motion.

Does anyone sense a disconnect anywhere?
 
From Meganoop
First
"They" (East) did not become USAPA. East and West became USAPA. All pilots were allowed to vote.
Then
USAPA does not equal "your side."
But then you say,
One thing you (and the East ALPA-phyles) wont get is a quick end to this

So which is it? Are we "one" or not? And who is served by prolonging the warfare? If, as you mentioned, a contract with DOH mentioned cannot be brought out until the appeal ends, are pilots being denied the chance to vote because of the timeline dictated by the appeal process and the desire to attach a DOH list? Aren't we back to the same DFR complaint?

I know USAPA doesn't want to admit it to themselves, but they have a responsibility to ALL the pilots of USAirways and cannot rig the process to produce the desired results. They have to allow the pilots to vote on a contract that is negotiated in good faith.

Good faith and above-board dealing is a strategy that USAPA has yet to employ. They have tarnished themselves through their transparent alterior motives and every attempt them make to defend the indefensible digs them (and all US pilots) into a deeper hole.

Is USAPA afraid to try a different tack, to put warfare on the back burner and put unity and cooperation front and center? Whoever takes over leadership of this pilot group will have to come to Phoenix and address the west pilots personally and often to mend long-neglected fences. Leadership via rhetoric won't cut it anymore.
 
And who is served by prolonging the warfare?

I know USAPA doesn't want to admit it to themselves, but they have a responsibility to ALL the pilots of USAirways ....

They have to allow the pilots to vote on a contract that is negotiated in good faith.

Whoever takes over leadership of this pilot group will have to come to Phoenix and address the west pilots personally and often to mend long-neglected fences. Leadership via rhetoric won't cut it anymore.
be

1) Clearly not the west group. Why else would this notion constantly, and exclusively surface from that side?

2) FYI; "All the pilots" does actually include the majority of the same..which are in the east.

3) Quite obviously; everyone will eventually be afforded a proper vote on any contract. If nic's contained...well...good luck with it going as you would wish.

4) In the exetended wake of the PHX road show....well...you may be hard pressed to find very many east people overly eager to pay personal homage to PHX's famous and proven hospitality. :rolleyes:
 
OK, does someone want to tell me that I am full of hose dung now about the theory that USAPA is trying to spend AOL into the ground?

After Judge Wake made his comment in open court on July 7th, specifically that:

"We're dealing with a history of proven pervasive violation of duty, and therefore, it's necessary for the Court to come up with a rule, with a remedy that will restore the neutral and even-handed motivations to the process and, in particular, to the ratification process.

Now, I haven't heard anything that would change my mind to the question."

Today USAPA filed DEFENDANT’S NOTICE OF, AND RENEWED MOTION FOR, JUDGMENT AS A MATTER OF LAW, PURSUANT TO RULE 50( B ). That's right boys and girls, they think they are entitled to judgment as a matter of law after the jury trial, but more specifically after Judge Wake's comments two days before they filed their motion.

Does anyone sense a disconnect anywhere?

USAPA is worse than Scientology.

9 Circus isn't gonna take the appeal.

Nic is it, and USAPA are in serious denial.
 
So, if United merged next week with Airtran your friend would be at the bottom of the list? Since he didnt bring anything to the merger! Dont bother to answer, I already know your response.

No job is no job. It's value is zero. It's doesn't get any simpler than that.

Go apply for a mortgage and ask the lender how much being furloughed from United is worth.
 
4) In the exetended wake of the PHX road show....well...you may be hard pressed to find very many east people overly eager to pay personal homage to PHX's famous and proven hospitality. :rolleyes:
Real leaders face their fears and are not conquered by them. If Cleary's not up for the job, the pilots should find someone who is.
 
So which is it? Are we "one" or not?

All of the above, none of the above, it doesnt make any difference. We're going to see the appeal through as well as LOA84, if need be. There is no TA out there that would get East support even with DOH. Not last summer when oil was $140 and not now with whats going on at LCC, running low on money and ideas. Scary AP article July 6. Can't paste it due to copyrights, but here's the highlightes:

key revenue metric is down 20%
7.5% drop in June passengers Vs June 2008
6.1% drop in capacity.
Load factor up 1.8%, but less capacity
more cutbacks for this fall
more C/Os on reserve
asking for F/A voluntary leaves


Why would anyone think that there is a good deal to be had with a contract under these conditions? You live in a world 99% dominated by NIC and the DFR. There's nothing out there to vote on. We cant even agree on costing models, much less additional costs.


And who is served by prolonging the warfare?

I'd call it exercizing our rights. Warfare is flamebait. Would you be satified if we went to the company tomorow and demanded their best offer with the NIC and then put it out for a vote? Would that make you happy?

If, as you mentioned, a contract with DOH mentioned cannot be brought out until the appeal ends, are pilots being denied the chance to vote because of the timeline dictated by the appeal process and the desire to attach a DOH list? Aren't we back to the same DFR complaint?

Pilots arent being denied a thing, member or non-member. There is NO TA on the table or anywhere close. And when it comes, IF it comes before the appeal, it will have NIC in it. But there wont be enough pay increase for it to pass.

Is USAPA afraid to try a different tack, to put warfare on the back burner and put unity and cooperation front and center? Whoever takes over leadership of this pilot group will have to come to Phoenix and address the west pilots personally and often to mend long-neglected fences. Leadership via rhetoric won't cut it anymore.

As Parker often says before answering, I can't accept your premise. We wont let you shape the debate by answering "when did you stop beating your wife" jabs. Non-members are getting plenty of representation, both east and west. What they wont get is a meeting to shoot off their mouths. We've been through that before. When there is enough membership to address at a meeting, Im sure our leadership will attend a local meeting.
 
What a load of ####!!!!

This DOH BS has cost the East pilot group a small fortune. We could have negotiated a better deal. We could have listened to our advisors. We could have listened to our merger committee. We could have listened to NIC, but NO. We listened to a minority that ran roughshod over the rest of us, hijacked the MEC (yeah, those political cowards who worried more about their FPL than what was right) and set us on a course that has no vision and no end. Now we fight each other (Empire/Shuttle) and salivate at the prospects of picking the pockets of our fellow pilots.

Retirement never looked so good.

A320 Driver <_<
Kind of hypocritical of you. I do remember you waving the USAPA flag when the Nic came out and using them as a threat if the west didn't compromise.

You got your wish.
 
Some excerpts from the hearing:

THE COURT: If the injunction is stayed, if it's
stayed and it's ultimately affirmed, the damage liability is
accruing. There's no escape from the damage liability for the
mere fact that the injunction is stayed. So my comments are
misplaced that this would be relevant whatever happens on an
injunction pending appeal.


THE COURT: You plan on leveraging the company by
sacrificing some pilots for others? If not, why can't you put
it all in one CBA?

THE COURT: What I see is a potential strategy to
eliminate the need for ever having to deal with the Nicolau
Award by negotiating differential, better rates of pay and
benefits for some groups and other and to garner majority votes
of groups subgroups and thus evade the duty that this Court is
obligated to -- the breach of which this Court is obligated to
remedy.

THE COURT: But you are overlooking it would also give
USAPA the power to discriminate in favor of the East Pilots at
the cost of the West Pilots in a way that could effectively
evade the implementation of the Nicolau.

MR. MIDDLEBROOK: And if that took place without the
language forbidding our rights under Railway Labor Act, then
the plaintiff has the right to come in and move for contempt
sanctions.

THE COURT: I have a duty to come up with an effective
duty now.

THE COURT: Well, we all recall earlier in this
controversy period, I think, in the mid 2007 where the East
MEC's response to this conflict was to demand pay parity right
there and then so they could get their pay raise and never have
to choose between a CBA that had the required Nicolau agreement
and pay raises.

And, Mr. Middlebrook, I'm struggling but I'm not
hearing much difference between what you are saying now and
what we saw presented in this courtroom at that time, which at
that time, was simply a strategy, among others, to empower the
majority to not meet its duty of fair representation to its
union.
 
QUOTE (EastUS @ Jul 11 2009, 04:06 AM) *
4) In the exetended wake of the PHX road show....well...you may be hard pressed to find very many east people overly eager to pay personal homage to PHX's famous and proven hospitality.

Real leaders face their fears and are not conquered by them. If Cleary's not up for the job, the pilots should find someone who is.

I was merely being excessively polite to your group there. If that was misinterpreted as anxiety towards encountering your west folk well; As my personal limitations are many, and I've apparently seen far less of life than some, well, perhaps war/raising children to manhood/holding family members as they passed/etc...but doubtless nothing to compare with others' heroic experiences....perhaps you can further enlighten us all on how "real leaders" conduct themselves..and face such ferocious, life threatening issues as dyspeptic lecture audiences? I've always been willing to learn from those far more experienced and well proven.

"Real leaders face their fears" = How would you even pretend to know?
 
I was merely being excessively polite to your group there. If that was misinterpreted as anxiety towards encountering your west folk well; As my personal limitations are many, and I've apparently seen far less of life than some, well, perhaps war/raising children to manhood/holding family members as they passed/etc...but doubtless nothing to compare with others' heroic experiences....perhaps you can further enlighten us all on how "real leaders" conduct themselves..and face such ferocious, life threatening issues as dyspeptic lecture audiences? I've always been willing to learn from those far more experienced and well proven.

"Real leaders face their fears" = How would you even pretend to know?

The West pilots represent close to half your active pilots. If the union leaders are serious about being a union then they should be living out in LAS and PHX, talking to those pilots, and encouraging them to join the union and be active members. Instead, they seem to have bunkered in back east and are content to send out termination notices due to dues being in arrears. If USAPA really wants to be a union, then they need to act like it. Right now, their actions seem to show that they are the East union and the West pilots are just speed bumps.

It has nothing to do with fear, leaders lead. They lead by getting out in front. They lead by talking to those they want to follow them. They don't lead by hiding and sending out termination notices. I saw the PHX video and it was tough. Too bad. If they signed up for this job they should expect it to be tough.

So if Cleary and his crowd want to be union leaders, they need to drag their butts out of court and get out and talk to their pilots, ALL of them. Their behavior just reinforces the notion that this is not a union, this is a tyranny of the majority, conceived as a blunderbuss to trample the rights of the West.
 
I saw the PHX video and it was tough. Too bad. If they signed up for this job they should expect it to be tough.

I see...so that's honestly your idea as well of what constitutes "tough" circumstances in which to lead? :lol: Thanks for the additional input on "leadership" and how the east people should beseech/cajole/and otherwise interact with the west folks. I can now believe my education to be complete.

I think we're done here.
 
USAPA is worse than Scientology.

9 Circus isn't gonna take the appeal.

Nic is it, and USAPA are in serious denial.
The Nic is dead, will never be on the property, the west will be sold off towards the end of the year. or will be Chap 11 again and liquidated. Eveyone knows this keep dreaming though!!
 
The Nic is dead, will never be on the property, the west will be sold off towards the end of the year. or will be Chap 11 again and liquidated. Eveyone knows this keep dreaming though!!
Have you ever stopped to consider for a moment where your misfortunates originate?

I'll give you a hint: it's standing right before you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top