US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Megasnoop]

From the outside of this process I see the alternatives being as follows:

1. USAPA receives and understands the message and changes their positions to embrace more moderate positions and living within the spirit of the injunction about to be issued;

I wish I understood your concern in this. Is retirement that boring? USAPA heard the verdict. Now we're appealing. We are going to play this out. IF we lose the appeal, Im sure our leadership will comply with the judge's remedy. What USAPA wont do is pull out of the appeal and sign a Kirby+NIC. Any MIG who has even hinted at that has lost in recent elections. There arent too many East non-members. Even with all them joining there wont be any shift in sentiment. Throw in ALL West as MIGS and there still arent the numbers. So your "alternative 1" wont happen.

2. If it were to be deemed necessary to folks to vote USAPA out as the sole bargaining agent ("SBA") it is necessary to not repeat the mistakes of USAPA, specifically one person leading the charge having been provided bad legal advice and, in conformance with that advice, misleading pilots as to the true intent of the campaign to remove the SBA.

Morphing CBA to SBA? Whats that all about? Reducing USAPA drive to "specifically one person" is insulting to those who voted for change. It is also so far from the truth. You werent there after the NIC. You didnt see the reactions in the crew room. I was an ALPA objector and didnt participate in any of the post-NIC ALPA events, but on the line it was obvious that ALPA had little chance of surviving.

Maybe there is irony here. IF 50% of the West pilots had been MIGS, IF they had voted
as a group against Cleary, then Cleary would have lost. The West refused to participate. Now they can live with the results.Not that one person could make that much difference. Our union is controled by the members who tell the BPRs how to vote. If DM had won, he would have been swimming upstream against the BPRs and the membership if he persued Kirby+NIC. Besides, do you really think AOL wold have pulled out of the trial if Cleary lost?

The rest of your "disinterested" guidance shows how little you understand our mindset and how we operate. We're not like the West. We have our own factions for sure, but among the MIGS ,there is no mindset for recalls, even though recalls at USAPA are easier than at ALPA, with all the interference ALPA had over even local council recalls. Cleary is here for 2 years. He will see us through the appeal. IF he was wrong on appealing, we'll cross that bridge then.

If ALPA wants to waste money to get back on property, go for it. They cant make an attempt until gone two years and by then, with the 9th appeal an LOA84 arbitration, I dont think theres going to be much mood for a change. APA/SWAPA? No, they stay strictly in-house. They both work with us in our full membership in CAPA. The Teamsters are probably the only ones out there that would be interested and have a chance, but they too have to wait out the ongoing issues.

As I said, the first option at this point is that USAPA gets the message and changes it course and saves its pilot group a lot of problems that would arise with the collection of representation cards and possible a new election on the question of who will become the SBA of the pilot group.

If anything, the last round of elections sent a message, USAPA needs to hold the course. Dont hold your breath on a card drive. So far, including TBD contract/DFR appeal, USAPA has been very responsive to its members. They allow freedom of speech never seen at ALPA. Example is the the West BPR rants, loaded with misstatements, exagerations and flamebait. One big thing is WE decide what grievances go to arbitration, not someone in ALPA HQ. We also keep all our dues money, which is spent much more cautiously than ALPA wining and dining.

I am gonna go change into my asbestos clothing in preparation for the inevitable posts that are bound to be coming my way.

Asbestos hardly needed, hp, although you obvously enjoy the notoriety in attempting to create controversy. you once claimed your only interest in this was the legal side. Now your into strategy. Who are you? What is your interest? Not what youve said. This looks like a good place to start ignoring you. Hope other USAPA supporters will do the same.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Asbestos hardly needed, hp, although you obvously enjoy the notoriety in attempting to create controversy. you once claimed your only interest in this was the legal side. Now your into strategy. We all know your not what you say you are. This looks like a good place to start ignoring you. Hope other USAPA supporters will do the same.

And you enjoy making conspirational statements to make HP the villain in this. Its not about you, me, or HP.

You can ignore HP all you want, won't change the fact that HP has been right, and you have been wrong.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and humming won't make the truth go away.

The ignorance and denial by the east posters is the stuff of a doctoral thesis. Really, you aren't gonna get an appeal, Nic is it, and its backed up by the courts.

 

[Elevation]

USAPA heard the verdict. Now we're appealing. We are going to play this out. IF we lose the appeal, Im sure our leadership will comply with the judge's remedy.

I think you will have to be in compliance shortly after the injunction is out, not after the appeal.

 

[East Hole]

Just imagine if USAPA was able to steal all that seniority then someone hired just prior to the merger would be furloughed prior to someone hired in early in 1988. How could we let that injustice happen!!!!!

 

[hp_fa]

If some of you haven't been believing me or what I have been saying, well the Judge is now on board. I would encourage all of you to read the hearing transcript in its entirety. However, if time does not permit, start at Page 75 where USAPA attorney Lucas Middlebrook tries to tell the Court about USAPA's perception of the proposed injunction and then watch the Court start picking him and USAPA apart.

The following is from the conclusion, but I suggest you find and read the whole thing and then decide for yourself.




THE COURT: I will tell you, I have done a lot of work on this and given it a lot of thought, and my sense arrived at after considering many alternatives is that it is essential to have this protection against discrimination by indirection. And that the circumstances, the history of the clear and abundant bad faith and discrimination here means that the Court's not running on a blank slate and USAPA's not running on a blank slate.

We're dealing with a history of proven pervasive violation of duty, and therefore, it's necessary for the Court to come up with a rule, with a remedy that will restore the neutral and even-handed motivations to the process and, in particular, to the ratification process.

Now, I haven't heard anything that would change my mind to the question. Page 91, Line 16 - Page 92, Line 5, Transcript of Hearing of July 7, 2009

 

[A320 Driver]

What a load of ####!!!!

This DOH BS has cost the East pilot group a small fortune. We could have negotiated a better deal. We could have listened to our advisors. We could have listened to our merger committee. We could have listened to NIC, but NO. We listened to a minority that ran roughshod over the rest of us, hijacked the MEC (yeah, those political cowards who worried more about their FPL than what was right) and set us on a course that has no vision and no end. Now we fight each other (Empire/Shuttle) and salivate at the prospects of picking the pockets of our fellow pilots.

Retirement never looked so good.

A320 Driver <_<

 

[boeingplt]

What a load of ####!!!!

This DOH BS has cost the East pilot group a small fortune. We could have negotiated a better deal. We could have listened to our advisors. We could have listened to our merger committee. We could have listened to NIC, but NO. We listened to a minority that ran roughshod over the rest of us, hijacked the MEC (yeah, those political cowards who worried more about their FPL than what was right) and set us on a course that has no vision and no end. Now we fight each other (Empire/Shuttle) and salivate at the prospects of picking the pockets of our fellow pilots.

Retirement never looked so good.

A320 Driver <_<

Bon Voyage sunshine.

 

[East Hole]

Ba Bye

 

[ClueByFour]

IF we lose the appeal, Im sure our leadership will comply with the judge's remedy.

This has to be from the "are you kidding me?" department. We'll touch back on it later.

IF he was wrong on appealing, we'll cross that bridge then.

Just noting it for later.

If anything, the last round of elections sent a message, USAPA needs to hold the course. Dont hold your breath on a card drive. So far, including TBD contract/DFR appeal, USAPA has been very responsive to its members.

Are it's members idiots?

USAPA is about a week or so away from absolutely getting pimp-slapped by a federal district judge. It will then (and I've been saying this since before you were a member, so my track record in reading tea-leaves exceeds those of you and the USAPA leadership) get smacked by the 9th Circus.

At what point do you look around and wonder: if everyone in the room thinks I'm an idiot, it might not be a conspiracy? See the quotes above.

If posters and rhetoric are to be believed, if the legal avenue fails (likely), USAPA would actually strike to try to avoid Nicolau. That's not like signing a card (and thus, history shows the east pilot group does not have the stones for it), but there mere mention of the idea is indicative of a serious lack of either cognitive reasoning and/or strategic (beyond what I'm going to get in my coffee this morning) thinking.

They allow freedom of speech never seen at ALPA. Example is the the West BPR rants, loaded with misstatements, exagerations and flamebait.

PHX of now versus PHL of old. At least PHL's stuff was published, not denied by the USAPA Information Minister.

Asbestos hardly needed, hp, although you obvously enjoy the notoriety in attempting to create controversy. you once claimed your only interest in this was the legal side. Now your into strategy. Who are you? What is your interest? Not what youve said. This looks like a good place to start ignoring you. Hope other USAPA supporters will do the same.

Head firmly in the sand. I've reached the point, frankly, where I'm considering avoiding East metal, because I (and many others) have a solid reason to wonder whether the guy in either seat actually has it together. If you don't see why your course of action was doomed from the start, you never will.

It's a good thing the USAPA leadership (theoretically) chooses to work flying airplanes in a unionized profession. They'd be laughed out of the room here in the Real World.

That said, go ahead and try to burn HP at the stake: your credibility here is established by what you write: how often have the USAPAians been right about anything? Twice a day, like the clock, maybe?

 

[nic4us]

We also keep all our dues money, which is spent much more cautiously than ALPA wining and dining.

You are kidding ? If you keep all of your own money, where did it all go? I have not seen it but rumor has it the LM2 says assets of 2.2 mil of which 2.1 mil is accounts recievable? So USAPA has next to no cash money, all they have is a big bill coming from Seeham for the trial and appeal and the only way to pay is collect delinquent dues from the West? Well if the West is going to pay the dues they owe to cover USAPA's legal bills, who is going to pay AOLs legal fees when they file for them following the injunction? I think Seeham is going to lay an egg when he finds out he has to get in line to collect his fees, and that line will not be formed by Date of hire!

 

[nic4us]

Just imagine if USAPA was able to steal all that seniority then someone hired just prior to the merger would be furloughed prior to someone hired in early in 1988. How could we let that injustice happen!!!!!

Beats me, because the someone hired just prior to the merger happened to be the furloughed pilot hired in '88.

Would that be sarcasm, irony or poetic justice?

 

[traderjake]

I've reached the point, frankly, where I'm considering avoiding East metal, because I (and many others) have a solid reason to wonder whether the guy in either seat actually has it together.

The Captains are all ok. A few of the F/O's are not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Retirement never looked so good.

A320 Driver <_<

What are you waiting for?

 

[EastUS]

Are it's members idiots?

I've reached the point, frankly, where I'm considering avoiding East metal, because I (and many others) have a solid reason to wonder whether the guy in either seat actually has it together.

I can understand your well thought out and entirely rational concern...and would only suggest that you pass this along to Captain Sullenberger and First Officer Skiles, and all the others flying out east that you feel you've "a solid reason" to "wonder" about......

 

[Hawkhunter]

Good friend of mine hired by United in 99 was furloughed yesterday.

So, if United merged next week with Airtran your friend would be at the bottom of the list? Since he didnt bring anything to the merger! Dont bother to answer, I already know your response.