US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[EastUS]

Why is it that uSAPa is completely unwilling to compromise even one red cent when it comes to collection of dues, yet, a non-stop theme of "the West must compromise on seniority" reverberates throughout the hallowed hard drives of every web-board where this labor issue is discussed?

The West lost the dues arbitration - we are paying up.

1)I don't believe that anyone's looking for, much less expecting any west compromise. Where would one even go to find a "west", existent as an agent of negotiation?

2) Time does effect change, and circumstances often play out differently than one might have earlier imagined.

 

[nycbusdriver]

deleted by poster

 

[john john]

QUOTES (cleardirect @ Jul 13 2009, 09:32 PM)
responding as one/ANY question

How about first doing me the very small honor of actually responding to even so much as one/ANY question I've offered you within the many pages of recent postings

YEA!
QUOTE (cleardirect @ Jul 12 2009, 10:52 PM)
AWA use to fly 747 to Japan and the rest of the world. So using your logic we also have expectations of flying wide bodies all over the world.

Please be specific with dates time line and explain why HP abandoned the route(s)? and who you gave it to along with maintenance issues. We all need an America West history lesson

 

[Pi brat]

Why is it that uSAPa is completely unwilling to compromise even one red cent when it comes to collection of dues, yet, a non-stop theme of "the West must compromise on seniority" reverberates throughout the hallowed hard drives of every web-board where this labor issue is discussed?

The West lost the dues arbitration - we are paying up. The East didn't like the Nic arbitration - they have turned to their lawyer messiah to steal everything they can from the West.

Why is that?

uSAPa's latest MIGS wants to know.

Suzie and the rest of folks not paying didn't just roll over and agree to pay, they played their appeal out to the end. That is what migs are telling USAPA to do. I don't think it will work, but as long as the majority want to go down that road that is what will happen, then they will pay the price like Suzie did.

 

[ussnark]

There's really no point in any argument here. Should bases be downsized in the future...they will, and, as you seem completely comfortable with PHX remaining as it is...well...again; why argue?

PHX = PIT?

Been there, done that.

 

[cleardirect]

Since the Nicolau was released and rejected by the east. All we have heard from the east is a constant “all we want is what we broughtâ€. “We don’t want anything from the west†blah, blah, blah. All one has to do to disprove that is look at the ridiculous and self serving C&R developed to advance and steal from the west.

1. All growth in the east will be done by DOH. After placing 85% of the west at the bottom of the list. It pretty much locks the east from any growth in the east. That would be company growth because since we have merged it is company growth not east or west.

2. All west growth will be shared 50%- 50%. So you want all of yours and half of mine.

TLV, china now CLT-HNL and 190 is new flying that that did not exist before the merger. That flying is a result of the merger therefore we should all benefit by the flying.

We have also heard that the west did not bring certain flying to the merger therefore we should NEVER be allowed to do it. I simply pointed out that the east was not doing CLT-HNL flying and using the east logic that if you did not bring it or that east does not want anything from the west. Taking you all at your word. Then you should live up to your word, demonstrate your integrity and refuse to fly that segment.

Another poster then made the statement that US Airways had “looked“ at that segment. So again using east logic I pointed out the AWA had flown 747 around the world. That is more then “Looking“ at wide bodies or different segments.

The position of the west pilots from the beginning has been that a merger happened. Anything that happens from now on involves all of us and that we need to share equally. That means any growth or shrinking needs to be both sides.

So the hypocrisy is that the east is demanded separate ops. You want all of the benefits none of the downside. The situational ethics change to meet what is best for the east not the pilot group as a whole. Since usapa is controlled by the east. Usapa is only looking out for east pilots.

Hence the DFR and the unhappy judge. That is my response. Not that it matters as most of what the west tries to inform you of is disregarded or twisted or ignored.

After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic. Depending on how it will benefit the east and harm the west the most.

 

[Pi brat]

Since the Nicolau was released and rejected by the east. All we have heard from the east is a constant “all we want is what we broughtâ€. “We don’t want anything from the west†blah, blah, blah. All one has to do to disprove that is look at the ridiculous and self serving C&R developed to advance and steal from the west.

1. All growth in the east will be done by DOH. After placing 85% of the west at the bottom of the list. It pretty much locks the east from any growth in the east. That would be company growth because since we have merged it is company growth not east or west.

2. All west growth will be shared 50%- 50%. So you want all of yours and half of mine.

TLV, china now CLT-HNL and 190 is new flying that that did not exist before the merger. That flying is a result of the merger therefore we should all benefit by the flying.

We have also heard that the west did not bring certain flying to the merger therefore we should NEVER be allowed to do it. I simply pointed out that the east was not doing CLT-HNL flying and using the east logic that if you did not bring it or that east does not want anything from the west. Taking you all at your word. Then you should live up to your word, demonstrate your integrity and refuse to fly that segment.

Another poster then made the statement that US Airways had “looked“ at that segment. So again using east logic I pointed out the AWA had flown 747 around the world. That is more then “Looking“ at wide bodies or different segments.

The position of the west pilots from the beginning has been that a merger happened. Anything that happens from now on involves all of us and that we need to share equally. That means any growth or shrinking needs to be both sides.

So the hypocrisy is that the east is demanded separate ops. You want all of the benefits none of the downside. The situational ethics change to meet what is best for the east not the pilot group as a whole. Since usapa is controlled by the east. Usapa is only looking out for east pilots.

Hence the DFR and the unhappy judge. That is my response. Not that it matters as most of what the west tries to inform you of is disregarded or twisted or ignored.

After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic. Depending on how it will benefit the east and harm the west the most.

I have to admit you got me. You turned around an east argument and sucked me in to replying with emotion. I regret that.

What are you trying to prove? You won the first round and I think you will probably win the next. What does this constant *(*& stirring accomplish?

 

[Hawkhunter]

After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic. Depending on how it will benefit the east and harm the west the most.

Always the victim , oh my. Dont you guys enjoy rubbing in good ole LOA93. I am glad you are having fun. Plan on having it for a long time.

 

[ussnark]

I'm not one to waive banners for management, but Luv you have to admit that this is the best management team you have seen in the last 10 years.

Surely you understand that bankruptcy has simply become yet another tool for management?

Best management team in last ten years? Wolf/Rakesh, who, in conjunction with Legow, made a profit of $1 billion in one year.

Worst? "Chronic DUI" Parker and "I mess in my own backyard" Kirby. Bar none.

The condition of the aircraft has become, and remain, the worst I have ever seen, ever. Should I say "ever", again? It is obvious tempe mx is used to having pilots "carry" broken aircraft, their line of "persuasion" to "take" a broken aircraft shows a long-term corporate cultural basis.

The blatant manipulation of on-time stats by, sometimes grossly, increasing block times, among other techniques, points to the complete lack of awareness on the part of the present thief-in-chief sycophants and enablers, much worse than the "yes men" surrounding Schofield.

The QIK "rollout" and after multi-year continuous "tweaking" the still broken implementation, after breaking every IT software "roll-out" rule in every basic IT book, certainly shows the "quality" of the Tempe brain-trust. I wonder if they have an IQ test at the headquarters entrance and those exhibiting positive IQ points are barred from entering. 😛h34r:

and the call sign change. After two years of "planning", the change was rolled out, in a mindless repetition of QIK, with no, and I repeat, no obvious sign of intelligence. Early on, I asked Brest Control what "cactus" meant to them after they initially used everything but and he replied that, it would be like Air France using a four letter call sign in the US starting with the letter "c" that denigrates the female pelvic area. No kidding. Pretty "professional" in their eyes. :blink: I am certain. :huh:

These tempe guys make the same mistakes, over and over again, because the employees let it happen. Employee push-back would actually save this miserable den of thieves from themselves, not that they deserve it, IMHO.

The only reason Parker has not declared bankruptcy is, with the lowest employee cost in the industry, he would then become the laughing-stock of the global airline industry, not that he is not already, by blowing half a billion in cash in a derivatives bet after world premier economists warned of a global meltdown in those very instruments at least one year prior.

Lots of other examples.

 

[ussnark]

War, illegal, unwinnable, Warfare, Operation "Virus", fake union, umbrella “sabotage,â€￾ most parasitic, Guerilla Warfare, underhanded union.
2 options, I’d agree. And with LOA93 comes the expiration date of concession pay and the return to LOA84 rates. That's a hard date. We'll probably have to fight for it, but the pay is worth the fight and the delay. Nic+a payraise that is nowhere on the horizon. You can't get to increased costs until you can agree on costing models. LOA93 or Nic+? Easy choice.

I'd say there is no rational choice, non-negotiable LOA 84 rates 01 Jan, 2010 or a 3% raise ten years from now.

Even your "mass membership" drive wont have the votes to change BPR direction. With the LOA93 pay concessions coming to an end in less 6 months, theres no upside for USAPA to negotiate a TA that would be a pay cut and right now, by injunction, have to include the NIC.

West mass membership drives? Like the less than 75% west support "enjoyed" by ALPA previously?

 

[cleardirect]

I have to admit you got me. You turned around an east argument and sucked me in to replying with emotion. I regret that.

What are you trying to prove? You won the first round and I think you will probably win the next. What does this constant *(*& stirring accomplish?

Not trying to stir anything. I was responding to specific questions posed by Eastus.

 

[ussnark]

I know for a fact that route has been looked at off and on since the first PI 767 showed up in Winston-Salem, what makes you think an east pilot had no expectation of it?

PI flew all the proving runs and, I believe, would have implemented the route were it not for the "train wreck" caused merger. Career expectations were pretty high.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Since the Nicolau was released and rejected by the east. All we have heard from the east is a constant “all we want is what we broughtâ€. “We don’t want anything from the west†blah, blah, blah. All one has to do to disprove that is look at the ridiculous and self serving C&R developed to advance and steal from the west.

1. All growth in the east will be done by DOH. After placing 85% of the west at the bottom of the list. It pretty much locks the east from any growth in the east. That would be company growth because since we have merged it is company growth not east or west.

2. All west growth will be shared 50%- 50%. So you want all of yours and half of mine.

TLV, china now CLT-HNL and 190 is new flying that that did not exist before the merger. That flying is a result of the merger therefore we should all benefit by the flying.

We have also heard that the west did not bring certain flying to the merger therefore we should NEVER be allowed to do it. I simply pointed out that the east was not doing CLT-HNL flying and using the east logic that if you did not bring it or that east does not want anything from the west. Taking you all at your word. Then you should live up to your word, demonstrate your integrity and refuse to fly that segment.

Another poster then made the statement that US Airways had “looked“ at that segment. So again using east logic I pointed out the AWA had flown 747 around the world. That is more then “Looking“ at wide bodies or different segments.

The position of the west pilots from the beginning has been that a merger happened. Anything that happens from now on involves all of us and that we need to share equally. That means any growth or shrinking needs to be both sides.

So the hypocrisy is that the east is demanded separate ops. You want all of the benefits none of the downside. The situational ethics change to meet what is best for the east not the pilot group as a whole. Since usapa is controlled by the east. Usapa is only looking out for east pilots.

Hence the DFR and the unhappy judge. That is my response. Not that it matters as most of what the west tries to inform you of is disregarded or twisted or ignored.

After four years of dealing with the backtracking on your word, changing of deals and general untrustworthiness it is expected now. Now it is just fun to point to the bendable ethics and logic. Depending on how it will benefit the east and harm the west the most.

That was beautiful.

The "Entitlement East" don't get it. They want it all and they don't want to share, or represent. Even after Wake, they STILL don't get it.

How they can justify their shenanigans is beyond me, must be a pathological thing.

 

[Bear96]

As was clearly the case when OJay was found "not guilty" of the murders he obviously committed, but, in later civil proceedings, found somehow liable for those very same killings? Ah yes! The court system in all it's glory and magnificence, is always utterly just, and completely infallible! Gosh...if everything could just be left up to judges and lawyers..what a truly perfect world we'd all have.

Are you aware of the differing burdens of proof in civil vs. criminal trials?

In any case, I find it humourous how many Easties keep pointing to the O.J. case - one in how many millions? - and try to make the connection that because they believe the jury in the O.J. case got it wrong, it follows that the whole U.S. justice system is totally broken.

If the 9th Circuit somehow rules for USAPA, I guess that will be a wrong decision too, because the O.J. criminal jury was wrong? Great logic.

 

[hp_fa]

Ussnark, while the sentence you quoted from me is true and correct, it's context is missing in your post. The context was that the prior management or US Airways for that ten-year span had run the company into bankruptcy. Twice. As I said elsewhere in the quoted post, current management hasn't yet done that.