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US Airways Pilots' Labor Discussion 4/2-4/8

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Come on man, you're this close, you can do it, post a link to that original rico complaint. It's usapa's finest work, you should post that up and bask in the glory, you know for old times sake.

Your quote below contributes more to a solution of our problems than me providing a link to your actions, that proves a lapse in judgment, due to a deficiency in your prefrontal cortex.

lynyrdsknyrd quote;

"Not all of us are drooling over your widebodies, I don't expect to have access to them, and hold on to your hat, I think that is only right. Just let me keep my little old 37 left seat out west and thats the last you'll hear of me."
 
Please provide a quote from me that substantiates your accusation, like I have provided in kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xO8PnZWWnE...2CF&index=4

Watch from minute 4 on...

Afterwards ask yourself how the voting breakdown went. Therein lies the DFR. You cannot make such things a referendum according to RLA law.

P.S. I find it funny that Seham talks of vindictiveness and arbitrary fashion. How would you characterize USAPA's actions thus far? :lol:
 
Your quote below contributes more to a solution of our problems than me providing a link to your actions, that proves a lapse in judgment, due to a deficiency in your prefrontal cortex.

lynyrdsknyrd quote;

"Not all of us are drooling over your widebodies, I don't expect to have access to them, and hold on to your hat, I think that is only right. Just let me keep my little old 37 left seat out west and thats the last you'll hear of me."

Nicolau didn't listen to me either? That part is already over with anyway though, I thought you knew that.
 
"So, did your side make any effort to become USAPA dues paying members? If you answer is in the affirmative, prove it".

There is absolutely no obligation for them (since illustrated) for them to become dues paying members, as there was, for many months, no way for them to become members.

"This text message originated from your cell phone, it's contents are - profanity, threats, insults, etc. - directed at - USAPA committee members/officers, fellow west pilots on the fence, etc - we have many more, care to comment?"

"Your former MEC chairman publicly stated that should USAPA win the election, it would be all out war - your response?"

It'll be stricken as irrelevant.

"I have here some of the early postings sent out by AOL and AWAPPA, after I read them would you care to comment how anyone could construe the attitude and intent therein as anything other than the subversion of the very union they claim is not representing them fairly?"

Yeah, that will make an impression on the jury too.

They won't see the jury. You still don't get it.
 
The West never allowed the East a chance to prove themselves. No cooperation, no dues payers. Criminal acts were committed to try to cause their demise. Abundant evidence of this.

The East proceeded in a matter allowed by law, Every West move was an illegal move, caustic strategy.

The only problem with your opinionated statements here is this small FACT:

It was all thrown out of court. It's a Fantasy, dismissed with prejudice, aka. not real. Didn't happen.

When you and the Cheshire Cat decide to emerge from Alices' Wonderland and live in the world or reality, let us know. Until then, we look forward to dismantling you and your fake union in court.

Have a Great Weekend... :lol:
 
The West never allowed the East a chance to prove themselves. No cooperation, no dues payers. Criminal acts were committed to try to cause their demise. Abundant evidence of this.

Zero evidence of it that was not tossed from federal court, and has not been re-filed in state court. Their have been no criminal charges put forth by an actual legal authority to do so.

The East proceeded in a matter allowed by law, Every West move was an illegal move, caustic strategy.

Well, you will know in a month or so. All-in on the "Seeham Strategy" is gonna prove interesting.
 
The only problem with your opinionated statements here is this small FACT:

It was all thrown out of court. It's a Fantasy, dismissed with prejudice, aka. not real. Didn't happen.

When you and the Cheshire Cat decide to emerge from Alices' Wonderland and live in the world or reality, let us know. Until then, we look forward to dismantling you and your fake union in court.

Have a Great Weekend... :lol:

I do not believe my opinionated statements provided on this current thread, were admitted in court, the primary reason, they were just offered within the last hour. What are you referring to sir?
 
Snooper,

I did post before fact checking.

Nothing new there.

I was going from memory of the McIlvenna out of seniority downgrade greivance. But since you pointed it out I went back and re-researched some ot this. Could not find when ALPA-East walked out so I will take your word it was June 2007. Did find a letter McIlvenna sent to Bradford April 2008 requesting section 6 negotiations for the West, funny thing I did not notice before was McIlvenna said he had secured a negotiation date in May 2008, did USAPA cancel that? all I know was I read Bradfords reply stating that USAPA would not negotiate on the West behalf, only for the joint contract for all pilots. When was that first negotiating session? I think it was after June 2008, maybe you can find it and tell me for sure but as I recall it was over 1 year from the date East walked on negotiations.

Your research is still off. McIlvennas grievance wasnt filed until five months AFTER ALPA was voted off the island. Theres no connect between it and McIlvennas letter to Bradford. Before ALPA was canned, USAPA and Bradford had no standing. AFTER ALPA was canned, McIlvenna had no standing, especially as a non-member intent on destroying USAPA. But since you mention Section 6, your own MEC, run by McIlvenna REFUSED Section 6 in June 2006, even though the old East MEC voted unanimous resolution of support. Those are the facts. Why didnt your old MEC go to ALPA National and the company and demand Section 6 while you were still ALPA? Dont trying laying off your own mistakes on USAPA.

As Jim pointed out, even if McIlvenna had standing, USAPA could not negotiate separately for the West. With ALPA gone, we were one pilot group, no east, no west. And negotiate for who? There were no West members to negotiate for! No West pilots who would defy the AWAPPA and McIlvenna threats and join and represent PHX.

The triggering mechanism is in the TA section IV, V and VI most in the intent of VI Operational pilot integration.

Those sections dont trigger nothing other than status quo until theres a single contract. Thats the way ALPA wrote it.

Wheres the "Intent?" Wheres the beef? 2 things the ALPA failed to envision: getting voted off the island. Not getting a cram-down contract passed before a single certificate. Maybe theyll be smarter next time. Oh, they were: NWA/DAL.


VI. Operational Pilot Integration
A. Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12) months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30) days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the "Operational Pilot Integration."

B. The Airline Parties then in existence and the America West and US Airways MECs may jointly agree to implement one or more selected provisions of the Single Agreement prior to Operational Pilot Integration as defined in paragraph A. and apply such provision or provisions to America West, US Airways, or the Single Carrier as the Airline Parties collectively and both MECs may agree.


In reply to another post about your guys not drueling over the wide-bodies. One of your own, who grew up 50 miles north of my farm in Bucks County was even looking at houses to move back to PA. Or so he said on the jump seat.

snoopy-doopy
 
This applies to every eastie I denied the js to. Like the one who told me to "F off", and the one who told me to "watch my back", and the one who told me "you will get yours when the court decides your stupid case".
Tazz, sorry to hear of the downgrade, a quick question, did you deny first, then that was the response after your denial. Let me apologize for any east j/s who would actually say that. Kind of childish in my book. Lets put this whole j/s issue to bed, both sides need to let j/s get where they need to be. This whole thing won't be decided on the j/s.
 
As Jim pointed out, even if McIlvenna had standing, USAPA could not negotiate separately for the West.

Nice try at taking something out of context to fit your argument, but what I what I was talking about was seniority integration negotiations between the East and West pilot groups and USAPA any structure in place to accomodate that (notice the quote from the post I was replying to). USAPA can not only negotiate with the company on behalf of the West pilots but has a legal responsibility to do so.

It seems that USAPA had no problems with at least attempting to negotiate changes to just the East contract, but no interest in negotiating changes to just the West contract.

On another note, negotiations between USAPA and the company began in late June 2008 which would have made it about a year that negotiations were not taking place due to events happening on the East side.

Jim
 
The East claims of jump seat denial are all substantiated by evidence and the complaints directed through the proper channels.

West pilots have allegations, transmitted on this web site and are not substantiated by evidence or a paper trail.

That's because the west guys accept the captain's authority and move on. Unlike the east guys filing complaints and crying to the chief pilot's office/mommy.

Similar to this whole situation with Nicolau.....
 
You guys really don't get it--the question is about the DFR. The rest is just noise.

USAPA and anyone who really believed the seniority land-grab it represents really needs to get legal advice from someone who is not Seeham. The most likely outcome is exactly where things were under ALPA and the choice will then be LOA 93 forever or Nicolau.

But nobody said the mob was smart.

The dispute is about seniority. The value of seniority is money and time (schedule). Seniority is zero sum. If one side gains money and time as a result of seniority integration the other side loses an equivalent amount of money and time.

This type of transfer of wealth can be measured and it can be subsequently reversed. We recently witnessed an example with the AIG bonus scandal. AIG paid the bonus money as they were legally obligated to do but Congress subsequently taxed the transfer of wealth back to the taxpayers. Many of our past victories such as no furlough clauses, $230 hr. pay for A320 CA and A330 F/O, and final and binding arbitration wins have been taxed back by the company resulting in LOA 93. Our victories were only temporary as the company LOA 93 victory will be unsustainable for them as well.

USAPA can and will tax back to the East pilots any lost seniority through the contract. The Judge cannot negotiate a contract for USAirways pilots. USAPA is the CBA and has exclusive rights to negotiate the contract. B scales are legal. Longevity scales can be changed. Scheduling rules can be changed. The company can be relieved of the requirement to maintain a seniority list. The Judge cannot take away a pilots date of hire any more than he can take away a pilot's birthday.

The important thing to consider is that inequitable seniority integration is unstable and unsustainable. There is a natural subsequent regression back to the equitable mean. Any seniority gains or windfalls will be temporary...and that applies to both sides.

It is rational for pilots to try to gain seniority in a merger but because of the inevitable adverse consequences it is not intelligent.

On a lighter note if you have an iPhone or iPod touch check out "Sully's Flight" on iTunes App store. For 99 cents you can download an A320 simulation where you can take off from LGA hit the birds and try to make it safely to the Hudson or even try to make an airport. It's cool!

underpants
 
Tazz, sorry to hear of the downgrade, a quick question, did you deny first, then that was the response after your denial. Let me apologize for any east j/s who would actually say that. Kind of childish in my book. Lets put this whole j/s issue to bed, both sides need to let j/s get where they need to be. This whole thing won't be decided on the j/s.

Yes, I explained that I couldn't get a ride home on several occasions so I would just play it forward. Although I denied first, their true colors came out, assuring me that I had made the right decision.

In addition, I used to do maintenance flights and nonreved positive space on east flights. I was sought out twice by the crew and given a hard time. Many times my young looking fo's were given a hard time while waiting for a crew van to the hotel. It just has boggled my mind.
 
USAPA can and will tax back to the East pilots any lost seniority through the contract. The Judge cannot negotiate a contract for USAirways pilots. USAPA is the CBA and has exclusive rights to negotiate the contract. B scales are legal. Longevity scales can be changed. Scheduling rules can be changed. The company can be relieved of the requirement to maintain a seniority list. The Judge cannot take away a pilots date of hire any more than he can take away a pilot's birthday.

What you fail to remember is that a contract is NEGOTIATED, and you would need the company's cooperation to get such a vindictive TA to put in front of the pilots. I doubt they would be willing to even show up for such dead-end negotiations. Then you would need a majority of pilots to be so short-sighted and vidictive that they would be willing to trade away any hope of labor peace for 10 years or more just for the chance to screw the west again.

You might have a chance with that one.

I think you will find the decertification process fairly far along before any such TA could be presented anyhow.

Why not look beyond fear and self-interest and move forward toward the inevitable future?
 
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