US Airways Pilots' Labor Discussion 4/2-4/8

[Leonidas]

Leo, YGTBK! "Every East Pilot?" Like USAPA non-members? Dues objectors? Those on the "hit-list" like Susie? Huh? Targeting $70M? That is so laughable? Thats owned by east pilots, not the union. And what "harm?" Until a list is in place, no harm, no foul.



My stock options came from the company, not from alpa. Yes, I have my answer.



Your "Leonidas" thinks its a done deal. Wakes "remedy?" Remedy to what? No contract=no NIC or no DOH=no damages. Not even Wake can input damages, if any, until theirs a contract. You act like this $70M is somehow under USAPAs control. Its not. Its owned by every East pilot, usapa member or not.



Snark, "cactus" means something else in France, where female controllers wont even use it. "ALPHA-WHISKEY-ECHO 700, turn left heading 090."

Snoopiter

You just don't get it, where does usapa get it's money? from you, so if they pay damages they use YOUR money.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The issue of the Cactus callsign does not seem to be fading, even after several months. In the beginning I told myself "Self, it's just a stupid callsign". But now it is beginning to dawn on me, and many others, that Cactus IS a stupid callsign.

Cactus is cute, and provincial, and regional sounding. So instead of a legacy callsign we are just like Citrus, Mesa (where cacti grow), Redwood and others. American's callsign is American, Delta is Delta, United, Continental and Southwest all reply to the names painted on their aircraft.

Exceptions that come to mind are Speedbird, Dynasty and Shamrock. But Speedbird is easily identified with aviation, Dynasty represents a long and distinguished national history and heritage, and at least Shamrock has no negative connotations or interpretations that I know of.

Cactus, on the other hand, appears to have alternate meanings in French and Australian slang. Many foreign controllers simply refuse to use the callsign Cactus. And in January of this year, controllers and first responders in NYC had a difficult time sorting out which airline exactly went down in the Hudson River.

Yes, I have submitted ASAP reports on this bona fide safety issue, but to no avail.

No, our VP's of flight operations have not distinguished themselves on this matter.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No, our VP's of flight operations have not distinguished themselves on this matter.

Or any other that I can think of.

 

[Edward]

Folks I just want to remind everyone again not to make personal comments. Stay on the labor issues. I've had to remove a few posts. Personal comments are going to get you time off.

Now take a deep breath before your next post. Thank you.

 

[EastUS]

I stand by that comment. As a matter a fact I expect every east pilot to pay damages to the west. There must be a punishment for what the east has done collectively,.....

Wow!...I simply can't imagine just what degree of open and professional communications and cooperation in the cockpit would come from such interesting outlooks. Flash forward to 33,000 feet when things ain't so good..."Hey! Eastie!...You all need to be punished!..and you owe me $70 million-billion-zillion dollars for all the "harm" you've caused me!!...and that ain't enough!!!....Umm..BTW; mind flying the plane while I get out the QRH?..It seems that number 2's on fire!!..and we're losing an hydraulic system and partial electrics as well!" Seriously folks; between these attitudes, the west's stated feelings that even having an east pilot as a jumpseat rider's "unsafe"...well....I certainly can't be the only one who thinks it utterly insane to combine these groups on operational flights....??? The absurd levels of even the merely stated animosity are overwhelming....PHX roadshow = "You know why I hate you guys!!??...I hate all of youse!!"..company meeting = "There are two different airlines,. west and east...and we HATE you guys!"etc....


Ok, OK..I get it = a lot of the west folks literally and actually HATE the east people, which brings us again to the proper questioning of the thought of crew mixtures...

In full fairness; I doubt that too many out east are overflowing with the milk of human kindness towards the west folks.

Even a military cockpit's a place to fight FROM...not IN!

 

[ClueByFour]

USAPA can and will tax back to the East pilots any lost seniority through the contract.

Negative. You will land directly back in court, and lose.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Wow!...I simply can't imagine just what degree of open and professional communications and cooperation in the cockpit would come from such interesting outlooks. Flash forward to 33,000 feet when things ain't so good..."Hey! Eastie!...You all need to be punished!..and you owe me $70 million-billion-zillion dollars for all the "harm" you've caused me!!...and that ain't enough!!!....Umm..BTW; mind flying the plane while I get out the QRH?..It seems that number 2's on fire!!..and we're losing an hydraulic system and partial electrics as well!" Seriously folks; between these attitudes, the west's stated feelings that even having an east pilot as a jumpseat rider's "unsafe"...well....I certainly can't be the only one who thinks it utterly insane to combine these groups on operational flights....??? The absurd levels of even the merely stated animosity are overwhelming....PHX roadshow = "You know why I hate you guys!!??...I hate all of youse!!"..company meeting = "There are two different airlines,. west and east...and we HATE you guys!"etc....


Ok, OK..I get it = a lot of the west folks literally and actually HATE the east people, which brings us again to the proper questioning of the thought of crew mixtures...

In full fairness; I doubt that too many out east are overflowing with the milk of human kindness towards the west folks.

Even a military cockpit's a place to fight FROM...not IN!

If the FAA signs off on allowing east and west to work in the same cockpit, after all the animosity that has developed over the seniority issue - that will really jar my preserves.

But I expect our VP's of flight ops to say that the issue has been studied and no safety issues will be compromised.

 

[EastUS]

If the FAA signs off on allowing east and west to work in the same cockpit, after all the animosity that has developed over the seniority issue - that will really jar my preserves.

But I expect our VP's of flight ops to say that the issue has been studied and no safety issues will be compromised.

"But I expect our VP's of flight ops to say that the issue has been studied...."

Well..that last would be true, in that such issues, throughout history, have been studied in both prose and actuality. We have, for example; The Capulets and Montagues ("All are punished!")...the Earps and the Clantons (Kablam!)...the Hatfields and Mcoys. (see Kablam/Ouch!! prior)..heck..the lists are really endless The small problem being that none provide ready examples of any positive and productive cooperation ever taking place ..nor offer up much real hope for that in this case

 

[cleardirect]

I offer the on-going call sign debacle to your comment about "complete fools".

Last week in Europe clearance asked if we knew what "cactus" meant in Australia, amidst lots of laughter. I suggested he call us "usairways", as written on the side of the aircraft, so, he did. sigh.

Australia slang: Cactus : dead, not fixable, not functioning ("this bloody junker is cactus") Perhaps some tempe wag thought cactus described corporate, in which case, I might grudgingly agree.

So we get to the continuing problem. Acceptance. The call sign is Cactus. Just like Nicolau it is settled.

When the controller asked about Australia your response should have been “Noâ€￾ In America it is a desert plant. Please use that call sign.

By your refusal to accept the call sign and asking him to use us airways. You are perpetuating the confusion and using an incorrect call sign.

We have no problem in the rest of the world. When we accept delivery in France or Gremany of new aircraft the controllers have no problem with cactus. Only east crews in Europe are having the problem. Time to accept the change.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So we get to the continuing problem. Acceptance. The call sign is Cactus. Just like Nicolau it is settled.

When the controller asked about Australia your response should have been “Noâ€￾ In America it is a desert plant. Please use that call sign.

By your refusal to accept the call sign and asking him to use us airways. You are perpetuating the confusion and using an incorrect call sign.

We have no problem in the rest of the world. When we accept delivery of new aircraft the controllers have no problem with cactus. Only east crews in Europe are having the problem. Time to accept the change.

Where, pray tell, in the rest of the world exactly do west crews frequent?

 

[luvn737s]

Even a military cockpit's a place to fight FROM...not IN!

Barring forced domicile changes due to furlough, anyone who is moving to the opposing tribe is doing it voluntarily. If they really feel they can't control themselves perhaps they will choose to wait a few months for their desired bid choice to become available on their home turf. It is in the best interest of the company to not allow the public perception of fueding cockpits, so I would imagine they will closely monitor any and all bad behavior and make the discipline swift and sure. While they might be somewhat reluctant to carry out USAPA's section 29 hit list, they sure won't stand for any pilots who will cost them serious money and public embarrassment. As one former Chief Pilot warned, "Don't make yourself a target!"

 

[EastUS]

Where, pray tell, in the rest of the world exactly do west crews frequent?

Ooh!..I know that one!...Pick me!! Umm...that'd be "What's ANYWHERE but where the european controllers are either too literally ashamed to use the 'callsign', by way of local interpretation = France..or have to otherwise explain to US crews just what an utterly demeaning joke it truly is"...

Whew!..It's certainly a good thing that it's all settled though. I mean really; Who wouldn't want to feel completely idiotic and properly embarrassed in foreign airspace?

 

[Megasnoop]

I stand by that comment. As a matter a fact I expect every east pilot to pay damages to the west. There must be a punishment for what the east has done collectively, because of the easts actions west pilots have been greatly harmed, and yes your $70 mil from the company will be targeted (should usapa try to use the bankruptcy courts to avoid paying). Since the trial has been bifurcated, we will be putting together a class action for damages, $70mil is not enough for the harmed caused.

Greatly harmed? How? Collective punishment for all East pilots? You really believe that? Your saying every East pilot marches lockstep to USAPA or even belongs. No DOH contract=No damages. you filed too soon. Line pilots, members or non-members cant be held responsible for what USAPA does or doesnt do. Nor can West office holders or members. Its a fanasty to think other.

Now that's funny! The only snap back your gonna get is the one that snaps you back to reality. If you want a pay raise, your going to need a new contract.

Denying the snap back would be not too smart corporate decision. We grieve. Maybe win, maybe lose. But the $70M belongs by contract to the East, not much debate there. $25K per pilot, paid in 2 installments if the company lasts that long. No judge can attach it. Fantasy to think other. Its simple property rights.

The company believes they have the right to impose LOA93 on the West as evidenced by the Hemminway letter to that effect. Maybe the judge will give them that, West is on LOA93, single contract, single ops certificate, single implemented list. No time limit required. Look at the bright side, you will have parity.

Hemminway. Parity. Thats no change for us and a 15% pay cut for you. We still get the $70M. Go Doug! Hes not that stupid. But you really think we are that jaded we want you to take a pay hit?

As to the 70 million. I do not know if that is touchable, because as you say it is not USAPA's.

Anyone who thinks its touchable by a court, jury, judge doesnt have a clue about judicial process or property rights

So many lawsuits and arbitrations I loose track, but was not the McIllvenna arbitration getting a hearing part of judge Wake's decision as to why to deny the temporary injuntion. i.e. USAPA had an alterior motive to see this arbitration forwarded, I mean after all if McIllvenna wins USAPA looses, but if USAPA does not arbitrate USAPA potentially looses.

Only one lawsuit. McIlvenna filed his grievance in July, long before the September DFR lawsuit. The USAPA appeal was well under way before addington. Dont look for "alterior motive" where they arent.

You just don't get it, where does usapa get it's money? from you, so if they pay damages they use YOUR money.

We get our money from east-west dues/agency fees. Union leaders and members are indemnified from paying losses. Under the laughable chance a jury award is sustained, usapa just goes away. You cant squeeze blood out of a turnip and you cant force union members to pay monetary damages.

Da Snoop

 

[EastUS]

It is in the best interest of the company to not allow the public perception of fueding cockpits,

You miss my point = It's in everyone's best interest not to HAVE feuding cockpit crews...cosmetic perception be dam-m-med..I'm talking real world here. How's that gonna' play into all the "And we hate you guys" bunch out there? :blink:

 

[EastUS]

When the controller asked about Australia your response should have been “Noâ€￾ In America it......

Why does this attitude not surprise me? if it's not suitable to the west contingent..It now seems that even entire nations must change their thinking/speech/epithets and/or humor/etc so as to suit the band of 1700