US Airways Pilots' Labor Discussion 4/2-4/8

[V1cut]

Here's what I have to say at this point. I just met a guy last week who has a personal friend that is a mediator with the NMB who currently lives in Europe. This mediator is a female, but I can't recall her name, or I'd post it. After the Nic award was rendered, this guy spoke with this other mediator friend who claimed to be "astounded at Georges' conclusions"...and that after a cursury review of the case herself, said she "should call George to query him on his decisions as they made little sense to her as a NMB mediator herself..."

Now, I really don't care if you westies believe that or not, to quote Metroyet..."IRRELEVENT", but I can assure you that there will be enough latitude in the courtroom for some backfill information leading up to present-day...like it or not.

I'm sure you'd like to believe that Wake is going to wave a red card every two minutes, but the jury deserves and will be made aware of some historical evidentiary data...to include the Nic and it's deviation from ALPA policy. You like to believe the Nic won't come up and is not on trial....when the truth is, it is the cornerstone of your complaint.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Oh...Not to worry there; Believe me = Virtually no one out east in the least bit imagines that anything attempted out west concerns fairness in ANY way, shape, or form

All west posters make much of noting the likes of your observation that: "in court, emotion has no place." It is almost tantamount to simply admitting just how much of a foul stench your west's, self-declared "Righteous Position" may actually leave in jurors' nostrils during any/all of this. Try running: "My two months is worth more than your 17 years"....or "My 11 years should make me 'senior" to anyone with well over twice that" by any, even moderately decent people...and see what their response is...and, I think that's a bit scary for the west, hence? = No considerations of "fairness" could ever suit your fantasies there, and naturally; no normal, and actually healthy human emotion's ever to be allowed

Your tone consistantly "blames" the West for the Nic award. We did not create the list, we are only accepting the final and binding ruling just as we would had it gone the other way. Had it gone the other way, and the West felt like we got screwed like you feel, do you think the east would be accepting of solutions to make us happy? I didn't think so.

Binding arbritration is a two way street. Both sides agreed to it and both sides will have to live with the outcome.

 

[EastUS]

Your tone consistantly "blames" the West for the Nic award. We did not create the list,....

So then?..You're all merely, complete and total innocents, without ANY assignable responsibility whatsoever, but... are virtually dedicating all your energy, finances and emotional focus into the single obsession of forcing it's implementation? :blink: Have I got this at all right here?

 

[nycbusdriver]

So then?..You're all merely, complete and total innocents, without ANY assignable responsibility whatsoever, but are virtually dedicating all your energy, finances and emotional focus into the single obsession of forcing it's implementation? :blink: Have I got this at all right here?

Yes. What he is saying is that, had the award gone straight DOH, or even stapling the entire west list below the east list, in their integrity they would be suing in federal court to uphold that award and force its implementation.

 

[EastUS]

Yes. What he is saying is that, had the award gone straight DOH, or even stapling the entire west list below the east list, in their integrity they would be suing in federal court to uphold that award and force its implementation.

Ah! It all makes sense now! Sigh...just imagine having all that "Integrity"!! I must assume that the west is just far too modest about such fine qualities, to ever wish to see any "emotion" from jurors, by even having their noble actions come up at any level then?

Seriously; the west's insistence about how nothing they're truly trying to do, nor have done, (and much less the actual "Integrity" and "Fairness" involved), will see the light of day in the courtroom (Heaven Forbid!!) should speak volumes to anyone......

 

[Waketurbulence]

Here's what I have to say at this point. I just met a guy last week who has a personal friend that is a mediator with the NMB who currently lives in Europe. This mediator is a female, but I can't recall her name, or I'd post it. After the Nic award was rendered, this guy spoke with this other mediator friend who claimed to be "astounded at Georges' conclusions"...and that after a cursury review of the case herself, said she "should call George to query him on his decisions as they made little sense to her as a NMB mediator herself..."

Now, I really don't care if you westies believe that or not, to quote Metroyet..."IRRELEVENT", but I can assure you that there will be enough latitude in the courtroom for some backfill information leading up to present-day...like it or not.

I'm sure you'd like to believe that Wake is going to wave a red card every two minutes, but the jury deserves and will be made aware of some historical evidentiary data...to include the Nic and it's deviation from ALPA policy. You like to believe the Nic won't come up and is not on trial....when the truth is, it is the cornerstone of your complaint.

Arguing that "The Nic isn't fair" is gonna get you nowhere in court. Period!

A binding arbritration that ALL parties ageed to will not be overturned in this trial.

This is contract LAW. The process for determining the seniority for US Airways was defined in the transition agreement that ALL parties signed and agreed to. That process was followed to the end result.

One side wasn't "happy" with the result and went on to ignore their obligations by not honoring their agreements. Then, by doing what was well doucumented in the AirWisconson case by trying to change unions in order to avoid such result. That tactic failed in court.

By forming a union with their own rules to again avoid the result and not represent ALL US Airways Pilots, usapa has backed itself into a corner. They are obligated to follow ALL contracts currently in place without harming one group over another.

Red card? Hardly. But what he will swing his gavel and when he does, you should be prepared for his ruling. You won't be happy again.

By the way, why don't you ask that "guy you met last week" to ask his arbritrator friend, how many "final and binding" arbritrations have been over turned? The answer will disappoint you...again.

 

[EastUS]

Arguing that "The Nic isn't fair" is gonna get you nowhere in court. Period!

By the way, why don't you ask that "guy you met last week" to ask his arbritrator friend, how many "final and binding" arbritrations have been over turned? The answer will disappoint you...again.

Can we rewind the tapes to all the parts where you're just noting yourselves as hapless. "Integrity" filled, innocents, via stating the Nic's not of your doing? :blink:

For added chuckles; let's go back to all the collective BS about it not being any windfall. For the final amusement of the viewing audience; how about a reasonable explanation of why you're all so utterly obsessed with the nic out there?..and willing to do ANYTHING to get your hands on it?

Ah!..I see Leonidas about. Perhaps it's time for another actual, real world summary of the west's true and loudly proclaimed as "Righteous" position..although...it'd be tough to better the far earlier statement of: "I want the captain seat!.and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" for complete accuracy

Just too "funny" for words....Folks?..You just can't make this type of stuff up...

 

[V1cut]

Ah! It all makes sense now! Sigh...just imagine having all that "Integrity"!! I must guess that the west is just far too modest about such fine qualities, to ever wish to see any "emotion" from jurors, by even having their noble actions come up at any level then?

Indeed. So much integrity that it warrants a quick review, so that we may all aspire to such moral correctness.

-The concerted organized effort to bankrupt a legally nominated CBA.

-The willful causation of large monetary expenditures in the form of telephonic abuse of a safety hotline for the expressed purpose of bankrupting said CBA.

-The coordinated witholding of legally mandated dues monies to said CBA for same purpose.

-The harrassment of fellow employees who dared to join said CBA, as evidenced in court docs.

-The creation of hostile workplace environments in STL by placement of hanging "USAPA doll" in East aircraft.

-The denial of USAirways east employees (NON-pilots) of non-rev travel in favor of west non-revs.

I could go on...but why? I think thats quite enough to formulate a moral code for us all to aspire to, then we can be as correct as our beloved AWA pilots.

( now comes the part where the westies retort and challenge us to "prove it...")

yawn.

 

[Waketurbulence]

So then?..You're all merely, complete and total innocents, without ANY assignable responsibility whatsoever, but... are virtually dedicating all your energy, finances and emotional focus into the single obsession of forcing it's implementation? :blink: Have I got this at all right here?

Yes, we are in this position by no fault of our own. We are here because the east was unhappy with the arbritration result.

Yes. What he is saying is that, had the award gone straight DOH, or even stapling the entire west list below the east list, in their integrity they would be suing in federal court to uphold that award and force its implementation.

The West pilots were prepared for ANY outcome of the arbritration. I myself, as a middle of the road Captain was actually expecting some sort of DOH award, however, my attitude was "furloughed is furloughed" and as long as I keep my seat will try to deal with it. On the other hand, I thought, if it goes some sort of ratio, I expected to be close to my pre-merged relative position, again, "furloughed was furloughed" and brought NO jobs to the merger. With Nic, the latter was achieved all be it, slilghtly better percentage wise then I was expecting but still went backwards overall.

Either way, West pilots were prepared for the worst. We would have accepted the result and moved on.

Even if we had the meltdown the east had, it really wouldn't have mattered, you all have made it known that DOH is the "cornerstone" and we would have been just a bunch of crybabies. I don't think you would have found it in the "kindness of you heart" to try to make the West happy and you know it.

Ah! It all makes sense now! Sigh...just imagine having all that "Integrity"!! I must guess that the west is just far too modest about such fine qualities, to ever wish to see any "emotion" from jurors, by even having their noble actions come up at any level then?

Seriously; the whole west bit about how nothing they're truly trying to do, nor have done, and much less the actual "Integrity" and "Fairness" involved, will see the light of day in the courtroom (Heaven Forbid!!) should speak volumes to anyone......

Sir, if you don't honor your agreements, you have no "Integrity".

It is as simple as that.

 

[V1cut]

Here's a good one for the more "energetic westies"...you'll know it: it's one of your favorites.

"prove it" (that USAPA was formed expressly for the purposes of sidestepping the Nic)

back at ya.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Can we rewind the tapes to all the parts where you're just noting yourselves as hapless. "Integrity" filled, innocents, via stating the Nic's not of your doing? :blink:

For added chuckles; let's go back to all the collective BS about it not being any windfall. For the final amusement of the viewing audience; how about a reasonable explanation of why you're all so utterly obsessed with the nic out there?..and willing to do ANYTHING to get your hands on it?

Ah!..I see Leonidas about. Perhaps it's time for another actual, real world summary of the west's true and loudly proclaimed as "Righteous" position..although...it'd be tough to better the far earlier statement of: "I want the captain seat!.and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it!" for complete accuracy

Just too "funny" for words....Folks?..You just can't make this type of stuff up...

eastus, are you serous? The Nic is NOT of our doing. Both sides had a merger commitee that presented their case in front of an Arbritrator and TWO NUETRALS! Remember that???

The Nic is a product of that process that both sides agreed to. Please expalin to the collective viewing audience how it is of our doing?

Grow up, grow some... Integrity, HONOR your agreements and perhaps you will be taken serioulsy!

 

[V1cut]

Arguing that "The Nic isn't fair" is gonna get you nowhere in court. Period!

A binding arbritration that ALL parties ageed to will not be overturned in this trial.

This is contract LAW. The process for determining the seniority for US Airways was defined in the transition agreement that ALL parties signed and agreed to. That process was followed to the end result.

One side wasn't "happy" with the result and went on to ignore their obligations by not honoring their agreements. Then, by doing what was well doucumented in the AirWisconson case by trying to change unions in order to avoid such result. That tactic failed in court.

By forming a union with their own rules to again avoid the result and not represent ALL US Airways Pilots, usapa has backed itself into a corner. They are obligated to follow ALL contracts currently in place without harming one group over another.

Red card? Hardly. But what he will swing his gavel and when he does, you should be prepared for his ruling. You won't be happy again.

By the way, why don't you ask that "guy you met last week" to ask his arbritrator friend, how many "final and binding" arbritrations have been over turned? The answer will disappoint you...again.

You guys are too funny. Whatever it is that AOl has you "group smoke" must be some awesome hooch...thats all I can say.

As for "overturning previous decisions"...how many people have gotten off death row when new evidence or improprieties have been discovered?...hmmm?

Is it popular? I'm sure not. Does it happen? All the time. Can it again? Of course.

I suggest you prepare yourself for that potential as well.

 

[EastUS]

I myself, as a middle of the road Captain was actually expecting some sort of DOH award, however, my attitude was "furloughed is furloughed" and as long as I keep my seat will try to deal with it.



Sir, if you don't honor your agreements, you have no "Integrity".

It is as simple as that.

Sir...your observations are very telling indeed..starting with "I myself", and, most notably: "and as long as I keep my seat will try to deal with it." Your whole program's apparently based on how YOU would personally be effected..and evidences little/zip/zero other concerns like..um..is it reasonable? Is this equitable? Is it not, perhaps, even clinically insane?

I'd respectfully submit that, without a slightly larger world view than "Meee!"...it's not even possible for anyone to HAVE any "Integrity"....."It is as simple as that."

"eastus, are you serous? The Nic is NOT of our doing." That being the case; one would think it reasonable that you "might" see the problems with it, and be amenable to other notions. The west seems perversely content to simultaneously note zero responsibilty for Nic, while doing everything possible to force it upon the "fellow pilots" in the east....that's a rather puzzling excuse for "logic" and "thought" wouldn't you say? I won't even heavily hit anything about "Integrity" here

"Grow up, grow some... Integrity, HONOR your agreements and perhaps you will be taken serioulsy!" For the first sections? = You've not the slightest evident qualifications for making the observations. As for being "taken seriously"? I rather prefer those I care for to have a functioning sense of humor. The day comes that I can't find or produce laughter from loved ones will be a very sorry time indeed. Trust me, at least on this = being "taken seriously" is way overrated..especially if one ever takes themselves too seriously

Last thought on your "Grow up, grow some... Integrity"? = I've stated, and truly mean that I'd cheerfully surrender my seat to anyone with more work time performed. I earnestly believe that to be fully proper, and I don't care if it'd inconvenience me to do what's right. I like to sleep well at night myself. I'd offer that "some" others might be well served by more deeply considering the notions attendant to "Grow up"

Your noting: "I don't think you would have found it in the "kindness of you heart" to try to make the West happy and you know it." Well...um..I'll have to note the "and you know it" speaks loudly of not my, but rather clearly; your thinking.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and be amenable to other notions.

Like the East was/is amenable to notions that aren't DOH? Some seem to see integrety as doing what the East wants at any cost - a pretty narrow view...

Jim

 

[Waketurbulence]

Sir...your observations are very telling indeed..starting with "I myself", and, most notably: "and as long as I keep my seat will try to deal with it." Your whole program's apparently based on how YOU would personally be effected..and evidences little/zip/zero other concerns like..um..is it reasonable? Is this equitable? Is it not, perhaps, even clinically insane?

I'd respectfully submit that, without a slightly larger world view than "Meee!"...it's not even possible for anyone to HAVE any "Integrity"....."It is as simple as that."

"eastus, are you serous? The Nic is NOT of our doing." that being the case; one would think it reasonable that you "might" see the problems with it, and be amenable to other notions.

Well, during the Arbritration I certainly wasn't "thinking" about YOU!

Don't take my comments out of context. I was mearly expressing my "thoughts" in that post about MY feelilngs how the award would turn out the same as EVERY other pilot was.

Believe me, the FIRST name you looked up when you initially saw the Nic was yours so lighten up.