US Airways Pilots' Labor Discussion 4/2-4/8

[cleardirect]

Where, pray tell, in the rest of the world exactly do west crews frequent?

Canada, Mexico, all of the counties on the way to Costa Rica, France and Germany. At one time that call sign was used flying 747's in Japan, and many countries in the middle east. Good enough?

 

[BoeingBoy]

No judge can attach it [the 2 $35 mil payments]. Fantasy to think other. Its simple property rights.

You apparently aren't aware that wages, tax refunds, real property, etc get attached all the time.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Is this the latest strategy to maintain your separate ops? To cry about how unsafe the mixed crews would be.

First it was EAST ALPA pulling out of negotiations and demanding separate ops. Then it was usapa could avoid the Nicolau because it was ALPA. Looks like that argument has been shelved. Then it was usapa could simply impose a DOH list. We have not heard that theory advanced for a while. Guess the reality has set in on the strategy.

Now we are down to the safety card AGAIN. Now it is unsafe to mix crews. The FAA has approved mixed crews for every merger in history. Take your pick of contentious mergers. NWA/ Republic, Flying tiger/ Fed Ex, TWA/AA. All flying together. Why do think that us air is so special? Time to grow up and be the professional aviators that we all are. Accept the inevitable.

 

[EastUS]

Is this the latest strategy to maintain your separate ops? To cry about how unsafe the mixed crews would be.

Interesting; This is merely a discussion about mixed crews, and yet = note the emotionally charged tones....

Umm.."To cry about.."?? Ladies and gentlemen...I rest my case as to just what a wonderful degree of cooperation and communication might be realistically expected in the cockpits of mixed crews.

 

[EastUS]

Canada, Mexico, all of the counties on the way to Costa Rica, France and Germany. At one time that call sign was used flying 747's in Japan, and many countries in the middle east. Good enough?

Perhaps..if backed by your personal and honest observations. When was the last time you flew in Japan, France, Germany, and many countries in the Middle East?..so as to have real knowledge of how any call sign's received?

From my own observations? = Japan?..Well that's been a goodly long while for me. "Countries in the Middle East?" = '91, France and Germany? = Much more recently

PS: I guess my question really is; How do you form an opinion of how things are elsewhere....if you've never even "been there/done that" yourself?

 

[Captain Underpants]

You apparently aren't aware that wages, tax refunds, real property, etc get attached all the time.

Jim

From the USAPA web site:

"Member Liability

Rumor: Individual pilots/members are liable for any damages awarded against the Association as a result of the seniority integration litigation.

Fact: There can be no damages since any obligation to implement any seniority integration provision would not arise until there is a single CBA. In the absence of a single CBA, there can be no damages. There is no direct liability of members. See APA's 45 million dollar liability issue as a case in point.

Rumor: Being an objector shields a pilot from assessments.

Fact: As a general rule, both members and objectors are liable for any assessments in the furtherance of our collective bargaining efforts."

 

[luvn737s]

Wrong damages.

Damages have arisen from USAPA's failure to represent west pilot's interests.
Keep an eye on Seham. He's not your friend .

 

[traderjake]

From the USAPA web site:

"Member Liability

Rumor: Individual pilots/members are liable for any damages awarded against the Association as a result of the seniority integration litigation.

Fact: There can be no damages since any obligation to implement any seniority integration provision would not arise until there is a single CBA. In the absence of a single CBA, there can be no damages. There is no direct liability of members. See APA's 45 million dollar liability issue as a case in point.

Rumor: Being an objector shields a pilot from assessments.

Fact: As a general rule, both members and objectors are liable for any assessments in the furtherance of our collective bargaining efforts."

If USAPA says so it must be true.

How is failing to represent the West furtherance of collective bargaining?

 

[BoeingBoy]

From the USAPA web site...

I was replying to a singular point made by Megasnoop - that judges can not attach wages (or other property). Whether what USAPA says is fact would withstand legal challenge is a different discussion and part of it might be whether members can be shielded when it is the members urging that the actions that could lead to damages be undertaken. If that could be proven (and there's plenty of post here to use as fodder) would the "It wasn't me, it was the union!" defense survive?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Hemminway. Parity. Thats no change for us and a 15% pay cut for you. We still get the $70M. Go Doug! Hes not that stupid. But you really think we are that jaded we want you to take a pay hit?


Only one lawsuit. McIlvenna filed his grievance in July, long before the September DFR lawsuit. The USAPA appeal was well under way before addington. Dont look for "alterior motive" where they arent.

Union leaders and members are indemnified from paying losses.

Da Snoop

I am just saying imposing LOA93 would meet all the criteria of the TA as you read it. The parity comment was sarcasm.

We are on lawsuit number three. East MEC vs. West MEC in DC superior court. USAPA vs. Cactus 18 in federal court. Leonidas vs. USAPA in Federal court. Pertinant arbitrations include Susie, McIllvenna, out of seniority furloughs, number of large RJs. So yeah, sometimes I forget which judge has said what as it pertains to which case. I was not looking for an alterior motive, I was looking for the TA triggering mechanism McIllvenna claims in his arbitration.

But do tell who indemnifies union leaders and members from paying court ordered damages.

 

[EastUS]

Consider this: Cactus isn't going away anytime soon.

I wouldn't be so completely certain about that, or ANYTHING else within this insane industry ever. Rumor has it that Mr. Parker's been bouncing about offline a lot on Netjets lately to other airline HQ's. There are huge finacial incentives for the top executives for additional wheeling and merger-mania dealing...of whatever sort. While I just can't imagine how much would tragically be missed in life by never having the complete joy of working together with mixed west-east crews..Well...Sigh...One can only hope...

 

[Waketurbulence]

Barring forced domicile changes due to furlough, anyone who is moving to the opposing tribe is doing it voluntarily. If they really feel they can't control themselves perhaps they will choose to wait a few months for their desired bid choice to become available on their home turf.

I am just saying imposing LOA93 would meet all the criteria of the TA as you read it. The parity comment was sarcasm.

I'm not so sure the Judge would harm the West pilots with such a thing. It would be a big reduction for the West in both pay and work rules.

However, the Judge could immediatly implement the Nic. as a remedy. The airline would still be in seperate ops, and as 'luvn said above, anyone could bid their Nic position by choice whenever a bid came out on BOTH sides. A West pilot could bid east and voluntarily accept east work rules and the same would hold true for east moving West.

The pilots that were unfairly furloughed out of seniority would return to what their Nic position could hold, as long as a vacancy existed, and a former furloughed pilot that is still working, would then get re-furloughed.

By implementing the Nic, the Judge could thwart the east efforts to "avioid" a joint contract as we all would be on equal ground with the same motivation to get to a single contract.

As said in an earlier post, two of the three requirements in the T/A for combined ops have been met, so I don't think it too far of a stretch for the Judge to do and it is well within his legal authority.

Anyone who has kept up on the orders and transcripts, realize that Judge Wake fully understands what is going on in this case. By implementing the Nic, he can put an END to all of this BS and force the two groups to move forward.

 

[Waketurbulence]

P.S.

Before you easties jump all over this as a pipe dream, consider that every West pilot realize's that the trial could go either way as we did during the Arbritration. But, also consider that it is extremly rare for a DFR to go to trial, especially with the speed of this one. The West pilots are seeking injunctive releif which means that whatever the remedy, it will be immediate even while being appealed. Those on the other side that think this is about the "fairness" of the Nic are sadly mistaken, as the scope of this trial is the Duty of the Union to Fairly represent ALL pilots of this airline. Contract law is very specific and in court, emotion has no place. What is written, what the intent, and what was AGREED TO is what will be presented and judged.

 

[EastUS]

Those on the other side that think this is about the "fairness" of the Nic are sadly mistaken, ...

Oh...Not to worry there; Believe me = Virtually no one out east in the least bit imagines that anything attempted out west concerns fairness in ANY way, shape, or form

All west posters make much of noting the likes of your observation that: "in court, emotion has no place." It is almost tantamount to simply admitting just how much of a foul stench your west's, self-declared "Righteous Position" may actually leave in jurors' nostrils during any/all of this..should they actually get any whiff of it Try running: "My two months is worth more than your 17 years"....or "My 11 years should make me 'senior" to anyone with well over twice that" by any, even moderately decent people...and see what their response is...and, I think that's a bit scary for the west, hence? = No considerations of "fairness" could ever suit your fantasies there, and naturally; no normal, and actually healthy human emotion's ever to be allowed

 

[Captain Underpants]

Wrong damages.

Damages have arisen from USAPA's failure to represent west pilot's interests.
Keep an eye on Seham. He's not your friend .

We all know what the "damages" are. The damages are the denied windfall. The West pilots are trying to prove the Nicolau award is unfair and inequitable resulting in lost wages from it not being implemented.

Make sure you don't underestimate the damages.

ALPA did the math and found 4450 captain years transferred from East to West pilots using Nic. That amounts to around $225 million dollars based on the difference between captain and F/O pay. Don't forget the West pilots moving into widebody positions is worth another $200 million. And make sure you add in the reserve to blockholder difference of around $70 million. Be sure to add another 10% for the DC contributions. That totals around $540 million. Nicolau also said the first 700 furloughs after implementation should be East pilots. Of course schedule and time off is worth more to most pilots than pay so figure out what that is worth and add it to your "damages".

Where exactly in ALPA merger policy does it say the goal of integrating seniority lists is to invert the seniority lists and make the now junior pilots at the bottom give up their seniority to the new senior pilots or pay them cash for the "damage".

I just read Phoenix has lost more jobs than Detroit in the past year. Maybe Nicolau was right and the growth and strength of the West system will turn around and a miracle happens and the West pilots somehow age faster and retire creating so many West pilot jobs that the East pilots will end up screwing themselves by refusing to accept the fair and equitable Nicolau award.

I can assure you the East pilots are feeling really bad now about damaging the West pilots by denying the windfall and would gladly pay you your "damages" if you just asked really nicely.

underpants