IAM Fleet Service topic 11/6-

[orioleman]

That the meetings are long and dull and we have to listen to all the other airlines.

freedom,
thats part of your problem.. you truly don't understand unionism. those other airlines are OUR brothers and sisters.

funny if your local at a BBQ to raise money to help you out in hard times I'm sure you appreciate EVERYONE coming TOGETHER for YOU.

see your all about yourself. just by the way you ranted about "the money" and VOTE YES to LOSE JOBS. shows your mentality. and thus I can see why

a union meeting would bore you. Why don't you go there and maybe just maybe learn something.

 

[alpha7]

"Something very lacking in PHX. I see few followers and even FEWER leaders out there in the desert."

Don't under estimate us here in PHX. I know of a good number of people here in PHX that are involved in the union and are leaders. What are you basing your opinion on?

If you want to talk about leadership, I will tell you about the last time our AGC showed up in PHX. Addressing the membership hungover (or at least appeared to be, bloodshot eyes, messy hair, etc) and was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Told us that he is as frustrated as we are that the point system hasn't been in arbitration yet. And this guy is an AGC? He can't influence that in anyway? We have had at least 20 people in PHX fired for attendance and he can't take one of those to arbitration? He is a New Direction guy and it reminded me of our old AGC's that were voted out.

 

[freedom]

freedom,
thats part of your problem.. you truly don't understand unionism. those other airlines are OUR brothers and sisters.

funny if your local at a BBQ to raise money to help you out in hard times I'm sure you appreciate EVERYONE coming TOGETHER for YOU.

see your all about yourself. just by the way you ranted about "the money" and VOTE YES to LOSE JOBS. shows your mentality. and thus I can see why

a union meeting would bore you. Why don't you go there and maybe just maybe learn something.

O man that’s not entirely true …

While I approve of union’s and unionism these other companies are NOT our brothers and sisters … they are out to destroy us ..

Besides if I lose my job and go to another IAM airline it’s not like I get to keep my seniority and the pay related to it … I have to start at the BOTTOM of their wage scale and work my way up … now if it was the OTHER way around , then yes I would say that they were our brothers and sisters …..Don’t get me wrong , I’m not opposed to helping them picket or what not , I’m just aware that right now we’re in a state of competition for our jobs , it’s them or us , and at the end of the day I’d rather it be them …

As to the MONEY , absolutely did I want the money ,CHA CHING BABY!!! As for the “lost jobs “ they weren’t suppose to be lost until further down the road … you can knock me all you want o man , but I’m the one who told you ahead of time that the economy would be as bad as it is today …

Me go to a union meeting ? Why , their filled with folks such as yourself o man … structured people who are used to a world that has rules and a whiff of inevitability to it …. Now I’m not knocking the people who keep the lights on and keep things running , I think they do good work , necessary work …. I’m just saying that I’m perhaps not the type that would fit well in that kind of environment …

Me , I’m the crazy type who thinks our airline is going to go down ( if we don‘t merge ), and the best way to save it is to press for government nationalization of the airlines …

 

[The Janitor]

"Something very lacking in PHX. I see few followers and even FEWER leaders out there in the desert."

Don't under estimate us here in PHX. I know of a good number of people here in PHX that are involved in the union and are leaders. What are you basing your opinion on?

If you want to talk about leadership, I will tell you about the last time our AGC showed up in PHX. Addressing the membership hungover (or at least appeared to be, bloodshot eyes, messy hair, etc) and was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Told us that he is as frustrated as we are that the point system hasn't been in arbitration yet. And this guy is an AGC? He can't influence that in anyway? We have had at least 20 people in PHX fired for attendance and he can't take one of those to arbitration? He is a New Direction guy and it reminded me of our old AGC's that were voted out.

Exactly what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues? You can't have it both ways. You voted in a contract that simply does not address it because the previous leadership chose not to engage in this newest industry trend. IMO, I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to think that an arbitration case will make the new attendance policy go away. Not until the matter can be resolved face to face between the company and the union will it change. Until then, the company will enjoy millions of dollars in productivity gains, and you can thank the new union leadership that they are fighting this matter even though the contract only allows a knife to a gunfight. Remember, before the new union leadership, the old union leadership was getting its training on the new attendance policy and told us in PHL that there is nothing that can be done. That may be true, but I still appreciate the new leaders fighting this.

 

[The Janitor]

O man that’s not entirely true …

While I approve of union’s and unionism these other companies are NOT our brothers and sisters … they are out to destroy us ..

Besides if I lose my job and go to another IAM airline it’s not like I get to keep my seniority and the pay related to it … I have to start at the BOTTOM of their wage scale and work my way up … now if it was the OTHER way around , then yes I would say that they were our brothers and sisters …..Don’t get me wrong , I’m not opposed to helping them picket or what not , I’m just aware that right now we’re in a state of competition for our jobs , it’s them or us , and at the end of the day I’d rather it be them …

As to the MONEY , absolutely did I want the money ,CHA CHING BABY!!! As for the “lost jobs “ they weren’t suppose to be lost until further down the road … you can knock me all you want o man , but I’m the one who told you ahead of time that the economy would be as bad as it is today …

Me go to a union meeting ? Why , their filled with folks such as yourself o man … structured people who are used to a world that has rules and a whiff of inevitability to it …. Now I’m not knocking the people who keep the lights on and keep things running , I think they do good work , necessary work …. I’m just saying that I’m perhaps not the type that would fit well in that kind of environment …

Me , I’m the crazy type who thinks our airline is going to go down ( if we don‘t merge ), and the best way to save it is to press for government nationalization of the airlines …

Going to a union meeting doesn't make someone a union guy, like going to dunkin donuts doesn't make someone a policeman. Union meetings are mostly business meetings that the average member will lose interest in. It's good to go to union meetings because it's a good place to meet and discuss things with your Local and District leaders. But I don't think union meetings make the top 10 list anywhere. Better, IMO, for the union to come to the breakrooms. In today's world I think that's keeping it real. We've seen our AGC in our breakrooms alot more than our previous AGC and my bet is that your new AGC has been in the breakrooms and has been more visible than the one last year. Point being is that their accessibility is measured by how often they enter the breakrooms. The old AGC's would only go to union meetings so nobody ever saw them.

 

[freedom]

Going to a union meeting doesn't make someone a union guy, like going to dunkin donuts doesn't make someone a policeman. Union meetings are mostly business meetings that the average member will lose interest in. It's good to go to union meetings because it's a good place to meet and discuss things with your Local and District leaders. But I don't think union meetings make the top 10 list anywhere. Better, IMO, for the union to come to the breakrooms. In today's world I think that's keeping it real. We've seen our AGC in our breakrooms alot more than our previous AGC and my bet is that your new AGC has been in the breakrooms and has been more visible than the one last year. Point being is that their accessibility is measured by how often they enter the breakrooms. The old AGC's would only go to union meetings so nobody ever saw them.

Well the new AGC is definitely cool … he comes by often …

I really don’t have any complaints about the union at the moment …

 

[alpha7]

Exactly what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues? You can't have it both ways. You voted in a contract that simply does not address it because the previous leadership chose not to engage in this newest industry trend. IMO, I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to think that an arbitration case will make the new attendance policy go away. Not until the matter can be resolved face to face between the company and the union will it change. Until then, the company will enjoy millions of dollars in productivity gains, and you can thank the new union leadership that they are fighting this matter even though the contract only allows a knife to a gunfight. Remember, before the new union leadership, the old union leadership was getting its training on the new attendance policy and told us in PHL that there is nothing that can be done. That may be true, but I still appreciate the new leaders fighting this.

About a year ago, President RD and AGC’s FO, MC, NH, MH came to PHX and told us that they would fight this new policy all the way to arbitration and that it will be heard by spring 09. A few members asked why they didn’t negotiate a compromise along the lines of SWA’s policy, and from the mouths of MC and FO, “we will never accept any attendance policy.†So we have waited while our AGC’s told us that this policy violates our contract. Now you’re saying that we can’t arbitrate this. Shouldn’t have our AGC’s have known this a year ago? Apparently they do now because MC, FO and MF showed up in PHX last month to tell us they can’t arbitrate this and they are trying to take individual cases to arbitration. So either they lied to us or they didn’t know. Rumor is that they have already lost their first attendance arbitration out of CLT (something about a broken finger).
Using the old regime as excuses should have stopped 6 months ago. They have been in one year and this is their problem. As far as I know the company forced this on the Union regardless of which regime was going to be in office at the time. Why doesn’t President RD go to corporate and attempt to a compromise? IMO, RD is too worried about United and doesn’t really care about US Airways. Just look at the 141 website, when was the last update for US Airways?
And in case anyone wants to know I voted for the New Direction so I feel I have the right to be critical.

 

[Tally yo]

Aplha, I remember the day the Old TWU officers went to corporate to negotiate an attendance policy and the company told them to shove it. I think the quote from the HR lady was something along the lines of we like our flexibility, they told us they proposed the WN policy, people in vegas thought they were crazy because people got away with murder on attendance, now they beg for WN policy. I believe the janitor is somewhat correct, not all parts of the policy violate our contract because our contract is "Silent" along the line of our insurance premium grievance we had and lost. Therefore you can only arbitrate it if it violates our contract and I believe parts of the policy do thats why it is arbitrated individually. Remember next go around at negotiations its not all about the wages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jester]

Janitor,

Your points are valid within your prior two posts, but you have danced around a final conclusion while asking others for an answer, and it easy to understand... our union leadership is inept.

We have group of back-slapping, poorly-educated, blue-collared good ole labor boys as our union leadership who are completely out of their league against the professional, white-collared legal and financial system against us. It is Amateur Hour and we, the members, are paying a dear price for it!

You rightfully raise the valid question in asking, "what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues," and it was left for management to decide? Allow me to ask this question, "Why are we paying monthly dues when something as common as an attendence policy was allowed to slide by outside of the CBA, thus the union leadership giving carte blanche to management?"

You correctly asked about a compromise in which other airlines have found acceptable as in the case of Southwest FSA's, but our "leadership" holds to a "no compromise" demand as if attendance policies are something foreign to work groups across all industries. Our "leadership" are stubborn as children digging in their heels while failing to accept they live in an adult world ruled by laws, contracts, and arbitrators. It does make for great drama with fiery speeches at the union halls and break rooms though, if it wasn't so pathetically funny in the first place.

What this union needs are truly educated professionals running this operation, and maybe an outside executive search committee to find talented people, instead of people from some ersatz academic institution like 700UW's repeated reference to the "Wizzenhutt Labor Back-Slapping Educational Center and Weekend Get-A-Way". If the membership is truly tired of getting subpar representation and repeated failures, then it needs to demand better people in charge of the union, even if it means bringing in outside professionals.

So Lambaste Jester.

 

[goodfellow]

Janitor,

Your points are valid within your prior two posts, but you have danced around a final conclusion while asking others for an answer, and it easy to understand... our union leadership is inept.

We have group of back-slapping, poorly-educated, blue-collared good ole labor boys as our union leadership who are completely out of their league against the professional, white-collared legal and financial system against us. It is Amateur Hour and we, the members, are paying a dear price for it!

You rightfully raise the valid question in asking, "what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues," and it was left for management to decide? Allow me to ask this question, "Why are we paying monthly dues when something as common as an attendence policy was allowed to slide by outside of the CBA, thus the union leadership giving carte blanche to management?"

You correctly asked about a compromise in which other airlines have found acceptable as in the case of Southwest FSA's, but our "leadership" holds to a "no compromise" demand as if attendance policies are something foreign to work groups across all industries. Our "leadership" are stubborn as children digging in their heels while failing to accept they live in an adult world ruled by laws, contracts, and arbitrators. It does make for great drama with fiery speeches at the union halls and break rooms though, if it wasn't so pathetically funny in the first place.

What this union needs are truly educated professionals running this operation, and maybe an outside executive search committee to find talented people, instead of people from some ersatz academic institution like 700UW's repeated reference to the "Wizzenhutt Labor Back-Slapping Educational Center and Weekend Get-A-Way". If the membership is truly tired of getting subpar representation and repeated failures, then it needs to demand better people in charge of the union, even if it means bringing in outside professionals.

So Lambaste Jester.

You apparently do not realize the attendance policy was inherited by ND08? They oppose it and are fighting it with the help of the IAM legal council!!! Yes Jester, I would prefer to call you what you really are, yet the cornfield is not my preferential resting place. They also inherited the POS contract that is inclusive of the TA that you and your desperate likes ran to vote in!!! Please attend your local meetings and run for office and see if you can change the baggage world, or will you just continue to be a cancer of solidarity??? So says GF

 

[orioleman]

O man that’s not entirely true …

While I approve of union’s and unionism these other companies are NOT our brothers and sisters … they are out to destroy us ..
dude what's in your pipe your smoking

Besides if I lose my job and go to another IAM airline it’s not like I get to keep my seniority and the pay related to it … I have to start at the BOTTOM of their wage scale and work my way up … now if it was the OTHER way around , then yes I would say that they were our brothers and sisters …..Don’t get me wrong , I’m not opposed to helping them picket or what not , I’m just aware that right now we’re in a state of competition for our jobs , it’s them or us , and at the end of the day I’d rather it be them …
So lets say UA bites the dust. You think it's fair for 35 years to get HIRED by another airline let's say US out in PHX and bump you to the street.
that's just ignorant. Becareful what you wish for

As to the MONEY , absolutely did I want the money ,CHA CHING BABY!!! As for the “lost jobs “ they weren’t suppose to be lost until further down the road … you can knock me all you want o man , but I’m the one who told you ahead of time that the economy would be as bad as it is today …

I bought some ocean front property just west of Tuscon last year are you interested in buying. That's just foolish gimmer. You like to talk about what you predicted well many many people warned of this coming sooner than later but fell on deaf uneducated ears.

as far as the economy goes been through 2 recessions this ones know different. IT'S CALLED LIVING WITHIN YOUR MEANS.. Ever heard of "saving for a rainy day" well its raining but that to shall pass.

Me go to a union meeting ? Why , their filled with folks such as yourself o man … structured people who are used to a world that has rules and a whiff of inevitability to it …. Now I’m not knocking the people who keep the lights on and keep things running , I think they do good work , necessary work …. I’m just saying that I’m perhaps not the type that would fit well in that kind of environment …


Me , I’m the crazy type who thinks our airline is going to go down ( if we don‘t merge ), and the best way to save it is to press for government nationalization of the airlines …

 

[orioleman]

"Something very lacking in PHX. I see few followers and even FEWER leaders out there in the desert."

Don't under estimate us here in PHX. I know of a good number of people here in PHX that are involved in the union and are leaders. What are you basing your opinion on?
Again let me ask . HOW MANY US FLEET are involved in the LOCAL.
If you want to talk about leadership, I will tell you about the last time our AGC showed up in PHX. Addressing the membership hungover (or at least appeared to be, bloodshot eyes, messy hair, etc) and was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Told us that he is as frustrated as we are that the point system hasn't been in arbitration yet. And this guy is an AGC? He can't influence that in anyway? We have had at least 20 people in PHX fired for attendance and he can't take one of those to arbitration? He is a New Direction guy and it reminded me of our old AGC's that were voted out.

Not a good way to get in the good graces of current regime. Funny you cry wolf. You were handed a golden ticket and passed on it
giving us RR . So pal some opportunities only come around once in a lifetime. looks like your train has left the station...

 

[The Bagfather]

Janitor,

Your points are valid within your prior two posts, but you have danced around a final conclusion while asking others for an answer, and it easy to understand... our union leadership is inept.

We have group of back-slapping, poorly-educated, blue-collared good ole labor boys as our union leadership who are completely out of their league against the professional, white-collared legal and financial system against us. It is Amateur Hour and we, the members, are paying a dear price for it!

You rightfully raise the valid question in asking, "what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues," and it was left for management to decide? Allow me to ask this question, "Why are we paying monthly dues when something as common as an attendence policy was allowed to slide by outside of the CBA, thus the union leadership giving carte blanche to management?"

You correctly asked about a compromise in which other airlines have found acceptable as in the case of Southwest FSA's, but our "leadership" holds to a "no compromise" demand as if attendance policies are something foreign to work groups across all industries. Our "leadership" are stubborn as children digging in their heels while failing to accept they live in an adult world ruled by laws, contracts, and arbitrators. It does make for great drama with fiery speeches at the union halls and break rooms though, if it wasn't so pathetically funny in the first place.

What this union needs are truly educated professionals running this operation, and maybe an outside executive search committee to find talented people, instead of people from some ersatz academic institution like 700UW's repeated reference to the "Wizzenhutt Labor Back-Slapping Educational Center and Weekend Get-A-Way". If the membership is truly tired of getting subpar representation and repeated failures, then it needs to demand better people in charge of the union, even if it means bringing in outside professionals.

So Lambaste Jester.

Jester: Basically IMO your pretty much dead wrong in you assesment. An AGC is roughly
comparable to the company's district manager. Our former district manager was a complete
idiot. They were smart enough to get rid of him in part because of his alleged mishandling
of the HLL thing. Another match "made in heaven" was Canale and Hemenway. Hemenway
was a ramper. There's guys here that worked with him. From what they say he wouldn't
even come up to "good old boy" standards.

I don't know what the formal education level of the current officers are respectively but
my own education level is relatively high and in my conversations with them has never left
me feeling that there was any lack of intelect. I don't know where you are. I thought
you were in LAS. But if you're in PHX and are using RR as one of your examples..Good luck!

But on the fine points of the CBA etc, its the IAM lawyers (who I assume have law degrees)
who make the calls. Now you might make a case that in a battle between them and the
company lawyers they would lose.. I don't know.

For number's crunching and bean counting I would give the edge to to Parker over
Delaney-if you think they have similar roles.

I sympathize with your general distaste for democracy. But how else would a union
work? And even if there were someone making Doug's salary in charge he probably
would choose people with job experience and union experience along with intelectual
capability..kinda like we got with the new guys.

But ultimately I have to agree with Janitors idea that the CBA is all important. This
"no fault" idea has been in the wind for a while and for our last CBA to ignore it was
a mistake. BTW the IAM was succesful in language clarification right at the onset of
this policy. Had the company not backed off on some point..mainly the no fault idea,
I think that arbitration would have been in our favor.

BF

 

[alpha7]

CL Not a good way to get in the good graces of current regime. Funny you cry wolf. You were handed a golden ticket and passed on it
giving us RR . So pal some opportunities only come around once in a lifetime. looks like your train has left the station...

Sorry not CL but a supporter of his and PREZ. As for CL he is not concerned with the current regime or his opportunity that may have past him by. He is currently working on his master's degree, he has more important things to do in his free time. But I find it interesting how you won't answer any questions or address my concerns.

 

[The Janitor]

About a year ago, President RD and AGC’s FO, MC, NH, MH came to PHX and told us that they would fight this new policy all the way to arbitration and that it will be heard by spring 09. A few members asked why they didn’t negotiate a compromise along the lines of SWA’s policy, and from the mouths of MC and FO, “we will never accept any attendance policy.†So we have waited while our AGC’s told us that this policy violates our contract. Now you’re saying that we can’t arbitrate this. Shouldn’t have our AGC’s have known this a year ago? Apparently they do now because MC, FO and MF showed up in PHX last month to tell us they can’t arbitrate this and they are trying to take individual cases to arbitration. So either they lied to us or they didn’t know. Rumor is that they have already lost their first attendance arbitration out of CLT (something about a broken finger).
Using the old regime as excuses should have stopped 6 months ago. They have been in one year and this is their problem. As far as I know the company forced this on the Union regardless of which regime was going to be in office at the time. Why doesn’t President RD go to corporate and attempt to a compromise? IMO, RD is too worried about United and doesn’t really care about US Airways. Just look at the 141 website, when was the last update for US Airways?
And in case anyone wants to know I voted for the New Direction so I feel I have the right to be critical.

From what I understand, the company doesn't have to open up negotiations about the attendance policy until the contract is up. When the ND persons got in, they approached the company and made an appeal on behalf of the members and the attendance policy was adjusted more favorably to the members. It wasn't negotiations. The company made it clear that it would not negotiate since Randy Canale already gave them free volition to do what they wanted with the policy.

The attendance policies are not exclusive to US AIRWAYS. Like the RJ's in the early 2000's, the new productivity gains for airlines are in these attendance policies. Unfortunately, the last leadership chose not to get anything for these free productivity gains. Other IAM properties engaged in the issue while in negotiations and got enhancements to job security and other benefits in return for a fair attendance policy. Didn't happen with US AIRWAYS. Randy Canale was more interested in talk of mergers and oil prices.

I didn't say the attendance can't be arbitrated. I also think there are good arguments that can win some points. I just don't think the argument will be finally convincing if it rests solely on the contract. I have no idea what MC, FO, MF said and I'm not even sure if they are arguing individual cases. I haven't asked FO about it. If they told you that they are going to arbitrate individual cases then I presume they will be putting together cases with the greatest potential. I have no idea bout the timeframe but being a union member for 35 years I have learned one thing, arbitration never is done with a quick hand. It takes time and the preparation is lengthly and exhaustive. I'd rather them take their time and do it right than just appease the members and throw something together that isn't professional. Along the way, if you want to be critical because you are anxious for a quick resolution then I think your critique is misplaced.

I find it in poor taste to keep bringing up the old regime, however, their work still lives with the contract so we must not be critical of the new guys for the work of the old regime that will live until a new contract replaces it. The old regime never addressed the displacement method either. All they did was cut and paste a proposal from Wolfe back in 1999. The proposal allowed the company to determine vacancies. Canale pushed this. So every time a company shuts down stations and senior workers are affected, the company always determines the vacancies to be in areas where nobody wants to go. It's a mess and I'm not even sure how it all works. But I can probably guess that most in LAS have some pretty lousy choices because of the contract. Again, don't criticize the new guys, give credit to Randy Canale for not negotiating a fair way in which to resolve displacements.

As far as the online communications, I agree with you, they can do a better job. But their offline communications have been 1000% better here. We have access to our AGC and can just walk over to speak to him, he posts his cell phone, I'm very satisfied with the accessibility of these guys. But again, online could use a bit more updating.