IAM Fleet Service topic 11/6-

[The Janitor]

Janitor,

Your points are valid within your prior two posts, but you have danced around a final conclusion while asking others for an answer, and it easy to understand... our union leadership is inept.

We have group of back-slapping, poorly-educated, blue-collared good ole labor boys as our union leadership who are completely out of their league against the professional, white-collared legal and financial system against us. It is Amateur Hour and we, the members, are paying a dear price for it!

You rightfully raise the valid question in asking, "what language in your contract can you use to arbitrate the attendance issues," and it was left for management to decide? Allow me to ask this question, "Why are we paying monthly dues when something as common as an attendence policy was allowed to slide by outside of the CBA, thus the union leadership giving carte blanche to management?"

You correctly asked about a compromise in which other airlines have found acceptable as in the case of Southwest FSA's, but our "leadership" holds to a "no compromise" demand as if attendance policies are something foreign to work groups across all industries. Our "leadership" are stubborn as children digging in their heels while failing to accept they live in an adult world ruled by laws, contracts, and arbitrators. It does make for great drama with fiery speeches at the union halls and break rooms though, if it wasn't so pathetically funny in the first place.

What this union needs are truly educated professionals running this operation, and maybe an outside executive search committee to find talented people, instead of people from some ersatz academic institution like 700UW's repeated reference to the "Wizzenhutt Labor Back-Slapping Educational Center and Weekend Get-A-Way". If the membership is truly tired of getting subpar representation and repeated failures, then it needs to demand better people in charge of the union, even if it means bringing in outside professionals.

So Lambaste Jester.

I'm not sure where you get your opinion that our leadership's opinion is to have a non-negotiable stance on something as critical as attendance. Certainly it wasn't Delaney's stance at United. Why would you say that when the most important issue on the system is the attendance policy? Once negotiations can take place, I'm sure they will engage in the issue. The only non-negotiable stance on attendance was the previous leadership who decided not to engage in policies. Once negotiations can happen, I'm pretty sure all of us here and probably in PHX will give the AGC's thousands of proposals regarding attendance.

Your dues have actually helped you from getting the horrible attendance policies that the non union companies hand their employees. As bad as your twice bankrupt contract is, it's still better than what the non-union employees get at non union airlines. It's easy to take for granted. As far as your opinion of rampers or the smarts of union leaders, that's your opinion. Nonetheless, you're much better off paying dues than you would be without paying dues. Unions always set the newest industry standards and I'm hopeful that we will be in position to obtain greater pay and benefits when negotiations start back up. The thought of bringing in outside professionals is a model that has been tried. AMFA used outside professionals but IMO they lost touch with the membership. The professionals spiked the wages to super high levels but cut deals to loosen the scopes. The end result was contracted out jobs but the jobs that remained were highly paid until they got contracted out also. The IAM has in house professionals. It's attorneys were some of the editor's of the reference book entitled, "THe Railway Labor Act". There is no more competent attorney than the ones that write the reference law books. Those same attorneys give opinions on these arbitration cases and have won attendance arbitrations in the past. R the attendance grievances an uphill fight? I think so. Can they be arbitrated? Of course. Is the argument finally convincing? That will depend on which cases are brought forward and the amount of preparation involved.

Clearly, you support the idea that unions are relevant and that your dues are worthy.

 

[Jester]

You apparently do not realize the attendance policy was inherited by ND08? They oppose it and are fighting it with the help of the IAM legal council!!! Yes Jester, I would prefer to call you what you really are, yet the cornfield is not my preferential resting place. They also inherited the POS contract that is inclusive of the TA that you and your desperate likes ran to vote in!!! Please attend your local meetings and run for office and see if you can change the baggage world, or will you just continue to be a cancer of solidarity??? So says GF

Mr. Goodfellow,

Okay, simple assignment for the E-Board and other people in this union leadership... Let's see everyone's educational background from accredited universities and colleges, along with the degrees earned, the years in the institution, and the major. Furthermore, explain how their education has benefitted our union. Based upon my IAM four-colored fishwrapper I get in the mail, the E-Board isn't much more educated than the typical McDonald's restuarant work force, "Would you like fries with that CBA?"

Now think about this... Do you want your livelihood, your future, your children's future, and your retirement to be in the hands of people who aren't qualified for much of anything in the professional world? As much as you and others have this distain, dare I say, this anti-intellectual mindset, of educated and professional people because they remind your of corporate types, you need those people. You need to understand, those are the people who control your future.

Blame Boss Canale as he is the easy scapegoat, but which one of the E Board members is any different than those who rubber stamped this CBA? Maybe the New Direction team was running under something The Who crooned, "Don't Get Fooled Again," but refrained in finishing, "Meet the New Boss... Same as the Old Boss."

So let's see it... and I don't think it is too much to ask for the membership to learn of all the union's leadership's educational backgrounds. Who's first or "Would you like to Super Size that Question?"

So Orders Jester.

 

[The Janitor]

CL Not a good way to get in the good graces of current regime. Funny you cry wolf. You were handed a golden ticket and passed on it
giving us RR . So pal some opportunities only come around once in a lifetime. looks like your train has left the station...

last I heard, I thought CL was well respected both in PHX and elsewhere? If not CL or Prez in PHX then who? If CL is moving on then I have to think that, at minimum, Prez will be in line for RR's job and play a significant role in negotiations.

 

[The Janitor]

Alpha ,
Good point . thats why I was asking a few pages back . HOW involved OUR people were at the LOCAL level. All I got was some lip service

from the GC about how good of a job he's doing . But didn't address the question at hand.

If US Fleet had more people involved at the local level. then there would be more interest for our membership to attend. Again it takes People to Step up

and run for office. Something very lacking in PHX. I see few followers and even FEWER leaders out there in the desert.

Take a cat like jester. has more opinions than molecules in his brain but "doesn't really want to get involved " just wants to arm chair QB and tell everyone what

they are doing wrong

you make valid points. Although PHX ramp has the numbers, from what I heard it doesnt have any local officers. Is that true? If so then it indicates a lack of leadership. For a station as big as PHX, it would need more than just Cl and Prez running the show.

 

[The Janitor]

Mr. Goodfellow,

Okay, simple assignment for the E-Board and other people in this union leadership... Let's see everyone's educational background from accredited universities and colleges, along with the degrees earned, the years in the institution, and the major. Furthermore, explain how their education has benefitted our union. Based upon my IAM four-colored fishwrapper I get in the mail, the E-Board isn't much more educated than the typical McDonald's restuarant work force, "Would you like fries with that CBA?"

Now think about this... Do you want your livelihood, your future, your children's future, and your retirement to be in the hands of people who aren't qualified for much of anything in the professional world? As much as you and others have this distain, dare I say, this anti-intellectual mindset, of educated and professional people because they remind your of corporate types, you need those people. You need to understand, those are the people who control your future.

Blame Boss Canale as he is the easy scapegoat, but which one of the E Board members is any different than those who rubber stamped this CBA? Maybe the New Direction team was running under something The Who crooned, "Don't Get Fooled Again," but refrained in finishing, "Meet the New Boss... Same as the Old Boss."

So let's see it... and I don't think it is too much to ask for the membership to learn of all the union's leadership's educational backgrounds. Who's first or "Would you like to Super Size that Question?"

So Orders Jester.

Jester, nobody can argue against how you framed your question. The question is rhetorical and the answer is clearly that union officers lack the degrees that corporate america has. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that your future is in more secure hands by having someone with professional degrees deciding what's best for you. The model you seem to be in support of is to contract out negotiations, etc., to professionals. That's a model that has already happened and IMO it has been proven as lesser than having in-house professionals assisting the elected membership.

 

[Jester]

Jester, nobody can argue against how you framed your question. The question is rhetorical and the answer is clearly that union officers lack the degrees that corporate america has. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that your future is in more secure hands by having someone with professional degrees deciding what's best for you. The model you seem to be in support of is to contract out negotiations, etc., to professionals. That's a model that has already happened and IMO it has been proven as lesser than having in-house professionals assisting the elected membership.

Janitor,

You appear to be a reasonable person, but simple question... why should you or this union accept anything less than what we are going up against with management?

If you think that education and training to be overrated in terms of outcomes, if you need a good butcher/surgeon, then I highly recommend my friend for vasectomies... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1C0ZPd9mas

I think given the track record of the IAM during negotiations, we couldn't do much worse.

So Recommends Jester.

 

[The Janitor]

Janitor,

You appear to be a reasonable person, but simple question... why should you or this union accept anything less than what we are going up against with management?

If you think that education and training to be overrated in terms of outcomes, if you need a good butcher/surgeon, then I highly recommend my friend for vasectomies... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1C0ZPd9mas

I think given the track record of the IAM during negotiations, we couldn't do much worse.

So Recommends Jester.

IMO, I think there is something to be said about having someone elected that has the pulse of the membership. In a perfect world, that person would also be highly educated with diplomas hanging on his/her wall. Who would argue against that?
The reality is quite different. Once a ramper obtains a certain level of education, the person usually leaves as opposed to having a passion for representing a membership. While I would agree that it would be beneficial to have all of our elected reps with diplomas on their wall, I've learned to appreciate that the company man, and the union man, are men of different colors. IMO, it wouldn't work if they were of the same cloth. While it is essential for the company man to have the diplomas, it's not necessarily essential for the union man to have them. This model has been proven. What's more important for the union man is to bring forth the desires and grievances of those he represents. On his side of the table, the power never rests with pieces of paper but in the solidarity of those he represents. Can he move a people? Can he build solidarity? Is he charismatic? I do think it is essential that the union man be articulate, and educated but abstract traits like trust and belief are also essential to his hand. I use the word 'educated' in a representation as something more than a piece of paper. But again, i don't want to devalue the significance of the educational accomplishments of someone who has spent a great portion of his time studying and defending writings and research. Such a person would be quite a benefit to a union and a membership if he/she had a passion to represent the member. As an aside, I do think unions have historically neglected the value of degreed education and instead supported candidates based solely on the good ole boy network. Although I can't be sure, IMO, this has probably increased some illegitimacies unions have in today's american culture. Certainly, the good ole boy has affected the contract we have now. I think an argument could be made to include resumes for appointed union jobs but IMO I bet that's not the case. My bet is that most appointed union leaders probably didn't have to include a resume.

I think the track record of the IAM is the best in the airline industry. The contract at Continental is the top for flight attendants. The contract at WN is the best for passenger service. Unfortunately, the contract at US AIRWAYS, IMO, is the worst IAM contract. That said, you can do much worse being non-union. Just look at how much the non-union employees pay for health care, look at their wage, look at job security. That's right, as much as our contract lacks the job security to protect TUS, it has enough job security to protect thousands of other jobs that would otherwise be at risk of being contracted out. The non-union have no security at all.

In closing, I think it's essential for the company man to bring the laptop to negotiations and show the union man the graphs and company projections. If he can get the union man to come to the company's home field and reduce negotiations to laptops and graphs then the company man wins. On the other hand, the union man can play with the company man's money. The money is the blood of the company. Reasonable people should come to a fair agreement. A fair agreement should have productivity that will keep the company healthy and competitive, and fair wages/benefits that will enhance the quality of work life. The characters that come to such an agreement can't possibly be stupid or uneducated people.

 

[orioleman]

Sorry not CL but a supporter of his and PREZ. As for CL he is not concerned with the current regime or his opportunity that may have past him by. He is currently working on his master's degree, he has more important things to do in his free time. But I find it interesting how you won't answer any questions or address my concerns.

Boy for someone not who he claims to be SURE does know alot of personal info
must be his Girlfriend my bad. Sorry CL. As far as answering your question really didn't see much of one
mostly just bashing the AGC's out on an open public forum. I guess if you want to sling the mud you might
want to put on some old dirty rags cause inevitable it will come back to bite you in the arse.

BF,
Very good point . I'm glad you refreshed us on that. Stay strong and continue the good fight against corporate greed.

Reminder: To CLT F/S ELECTION for lodge officer's and Grievance Committee DEC 10 at the LOCAL

 

[orioleman]

Blame Boss Canale as he is the easy scapegoat, but which one of the E Board members is any different than those who rubber stamped this CBA? Maybe the New Direction team was running under something The Who crooned, "Don't Get Fooled Again," but refrained in finishing, "Meet the New Boss... Same as the Old Boss."
Hey jester Color me this oh great Hypocrite. WHO was crying from the highest Cactus . SIGN THE DEAL.
"take the money" "they won't come back" blah blah blah. Did RC rubber stamp . H*ll yea . Did RC decide
to negotiate with AH one on one. H*ll yea. (leaving the neg committee complete out of it). Jester your moniker
fits you to a tee. The more you speak the more Foolish you get. You would have made millions back in the day
working for a King.

So let's see it... and I don't think it is too much to ask for the membership to learn of all the union's leadership's educational backgrounds. Who's first or "Would you like to Super Size that Question?"

Tell ya what oh foolish one let's start with you, seeing you seem to have all this sheep skin laying around going
to NO use . You volley up the first Resume: But remember you have to Honest.. :down: :down:
So Orders Jester.

 

[Jester]

O-man,

I know you are all chewing at the bit to figure out if I am really "Dave" in the supply room (for which I am not, by the way), but suffice to say my educational curriculum vitea would be greater than the entire Execuitve Board combined based upon their published profiles in the monthly IAM fish wrapper. Which really is not saying much as I think there was one member with a bachelors degree from a college I never heard about until I googled it.

On a professional basis, I did assist in the negotiations on the management side with a real union with solid negotiators from the SEIU versus the Amateur Hour clowns currently running the show with the IAM. So I have negotiating experience, not to mention, I have managed my own businesses dozens of employees. I have been a FSA agent for 10 years and seen plenty of capricious mismanagement, so I believe I can be objective to both sides point-of-view.

These qualities alone make me better qualified than probably 95% of the current buffoons running the IAM operation, and yet, does it make me qualified for any executive position within the union? Not in the least... this organization needs people who do this for a living and have been specifically trained and experienced in labor law and contract negotiations.

Dump the good ole boy network of backslappers and sycophants and demand that the leadership deliver results instead of dealing in political favors, if want better outcomes than presently.

So Reveals Jester.

 

[The Janitor]

Boy for someone not who he claims to be SURE does know alot of personal info
must be his Girlfriend my bad. Sorry CL. As far as answering your question really didn't see much of one
mostly just bashing the AGC's out on an open public forum. I guess if you want to sling the mud you might
want to put on some old dirty rags cause inevitable it will come back to bite you in the arse.

BF,
Very good point . I'm glad you refreshed us on that. Stay strong and continue the good fight against corporate greed.

Reminder: To CLT F/S ELECTION for lodge officer's and Grievance Committee DEC 10 at the LOCAL

Oman, what really is your point of mentioning initials and guessing who's who? Can't we all have intelligent discussion without branding certain posters with initials? I thought it was against USAVIATION board policy to brand a certain poster with first and last name initials? Whatever the case, I just think it is in poor taste to accuse a poster of being someone who he probably isn't. Oman, you seem like a great union guy but you also seem to be repeatedly throwing thorns to the westside when you need to let it go Oman. Where's that one CLT poster named RoaBilly been? Him and JoeDirt?

 

[orioleman]

On a professional basis, I did assist in the negotiations on the management side with a real union with solid negotiators from the SEIU versus the Amateur Hour clowns currently running the show with the IAM. So I have negotiating experience, not to mention, I have managed my own businesses dozens of employees. I have been a FSA agent for 10 years and seen plenty of capricious mismanagement, so I believe I can be objective to both sides point-of-view.

These qualities alone make me better qualified than probably 95% of the current buffoons running the IAM operation, and yet, does it make me qualified for any executive position within the union? Not in the least... this organization needs people who do this for a living and have been specifically trained and experienced in labor law and contract negotiations.
ding ding ladies and gents we have a winner.. Jester would love to have on the team. But first you have to get INVOLVED.. with your intellect and negotiation expertise is just what we need.SO may I suggest you through you hat in the ring for say the Grievance Committee that would position you well for the bargaining table in 2012.

Dump the good ole boy network of backslappers and sycophants and demand that the leadership deliver results instead of dealing in political favors, if want better outcomes than presently.
How about this . we demand our leadership fight for results . But It's hard to go to the table with no bullets when you have a membership that
will jump on any bone the company throws your way. The company knows this . that's one reason they low ball. cause 90 percent of the time everyone bites
get a membership that has solidarity and maybe just maybe management will take notice until then . Same ole same ole


So Reveals Jester.

 

[orioleman]

Oman, what really is your point of mentioning initials and guessing who's who? Can't we all have intelligent discussion without branding certain posters with initials? I thought it was against USAVIATION board policy to brand a certain poster with first and last name initials? Whatever the case, I just think it is in poor taste to accuse a poster of being someone who he probably isn't. Oman, you seem like a great union guy but you also seem to be repeatedly throwing thorns to the westside when you need to let it go Oman. Where's that one CLT poster named RoaBilly been? Him and JoeDirt?

hey janitor don't you have some trash to take out or some bathrooms to clean.
tell you what. Your right to the extent of doing Initials and calling them out. But remember I didn't start this calling out stuff.
Good bad or otherwise. I support our leadership and will not sit and listen to a bunch of whiners call them out publicly.
but anyway . My apologies to the EGOS out in PHX. Still waiting for a response on our F/S involved at the local.
if you don't have any then tell me and we will move on.

 

[The Janitor]

hey janitor don't you have some trash to take out or some bathrooms to clean.
tell you what. Your right to the extent of doing Initials and calling them out. But remember I didn't start this calling out stuff.
Good bad or otherwise. I support our leadership and will not sit and listen to a bunch of whiners call them out publicly.
but anyway . My apologies to the EGOS out in PHX. Still waiting for a response on our F/S involved at the local.
if you don't have any then tell me and we will move on.

I haven't taken the trash out yet. Seems some kid was playing games turning all the faucets on so I have quite a mess I have to mop up. Maybe I'll have some time to go through some lockers and read some letters.

 

[P. REZ]

hey janitor don't you have some trash to take out or some bathrooms to clean.
tell you what. Your right to the extent of doing Initials and calling them out. But remember I didn't start this calling out stuff.
Good bad or otherwise. I support our leadership and will not sit and listen to a bunch of whiners call them out publicly.
but anyway . My apologies to the EGOS out in PHX. Still waiting for a response on our F/S involved at the local.
if you don't have any then tell me and we will move on.

Oman,

No need to apologize for EGOS in PHX, just your hate for the west in general. RR is involved with the Local lodge and the next election is next year I believe. Good or bad or otherwise you say you will support our leadership? You didn't support Canale. So, hypothetically, if you didn't agree with our current leaders and direction they take you would support them or bash them like Canale?

To be honest with you, PHX does need more people to step up and take an active role with our Union. We have a good safety committee, GC and several good stewards.

Don't hate the best coast bro.

P. Rez