AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[AAA73Pilot]

Since when do right seat position create capt vacancies?? DO they in your world??? Liers and cheats that describes the east usapa crowd. I would get that resume ready and hope they are looking for 56 plus year old first officers with bad attitudes

Vacancies? Covered elsewhere. But liars and cheats? You really are grasping. Keep it up. It makes me feel better watching the rantings of someone grudgingly beginning to face reality. An election is in our future. It will be a very interesting campaign watching people like you defend ALPA.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

Nostradamus=Misnomer.

 

[nostradamus]

You have a problem with the Swiss?

Lame A** analogy. Try again.

You may think your pay is more important than you life but some people lived through that time.

What exactly are you saying?

"Looted Assets:

The Nazi regime in Germany forced many of their victims to sign orders for the transfer of their accounts and other assets with Swiss banks and insurance companies to German banks, where they would be confiscated. Swiss banks did not doubt these orders. This way they made it unnecessarily easy for the Nazis to loote their victims' assets."


Read your history or it will repeat itself in business and in government.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

"Looted Assets:

The Nazi regime in Germany forced many of their victims to sign orders for the transfer of their accounts and other assets with Swiss banks and insurance companies to German banks, where they would be confiscated. Swiss banks did not doubt these orders. This way they made it unnecessarily easy for the Nazis to loote their victims' assets."
Read your history or it will repeat itself in business and in government.

Yeah pal, and it was the Swiss who caused all this. No one else and no one looked the other way.

You chose a small country to pick on, what about Chamberlain and the other powers who stood by and did nothing.

How is your memory of those events?

 

[nostradamus]

Yeah pal, and it was the Swiss who caused all this. No one else and no one looked the other way.

You chose a small country to pick on, what about Chamberlain and the other powers who stood by and did nothing.

How is your memory of those events?

There is a list that goes to infinity of those that look the other way, In this thread I am not on it.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I am not on it.

You are of it because you said it.

Talking too much is not a good thing sometimes.

 

[nostradamus]

You are of it because you said it.

Talking too much is not a good thing sometimes.

My point is being quiet about things is not the best option.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

My point is being quiet about things is not the best option.

Thats fine, but this illustrates that there is enough blame to go around.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI. From the USAPA Website.

Why is USAPA good for a West pilot?
Why would a West pilot support USAPA?


We're sure that any West pilots who are reading this are already thinking there is absolutely nothing that could cause them to support USAPA, and you may still feel that way when you finish reading. That said, USAPA was not created just for the East pilot - USAPA exists because all US Airways deserve better representation than ALPA can provide.
The time has come for US Airways pilots to have their own union; one not conflicted by the interests of other carriers, one that has policy that demands results, not just process. It is for this reason that USAPA was formed. The West pilots too have had issues with ALPA, but it is the East that, time and again, that has been left standing alone, essentially abandoned by National. We have watched the wholesale destruction of our airline by robber-barons singing a siren song (they're still here, singing!) Those same robber-barons turned an airline that had the highest yields, highest pay, best working conditions and lowest debt into the laughing stock of the industry. Concurrent with this decline was the decline in the lives of those who worked here; we've taken the largest pay cuts in the industry, traded "life-style" for servitude, and lost our retirement. All of this occurred while ALPA watched. Those are the reasons USAPA exists, and regardless of what happens with seniority, we will not rest until ALPA is off the property.

"Fine" you ask, "how does this affect me, a West pilot?" It affects you because (believe it or not) this new union, rising from the ashes and fury of the East pilots, will be there to protect you as well. It starts from the beginning, from a phrase and basic tenant in USAPA Constitution and Bylaws: "to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations". That phrase doesn't say East, it doesn't say West, it says "each." It means to preserve pay. It means to preserve status. It means to address a pilot's pre-merged, quantifiable attrition expectations. It means to preserve base. It means, "what you had before will be protected." These are just some of the protections a West pilot will have with USAPA; protections a West pilot does not and will not have with ALPA.

It is USAPA's belief (shared by many) that there is another merger coming. In fact, we believe the deal's already done. With this in mind, a concern in every pilot's mind (East and West) will be seniority integration in the next merger. With the Nicolau award in place, precedence is set wherein no emphasis is placed on length of service with regard to placement on the "seniority" list. Nicolau followed earlier precedence and protected widebody flying. So the West pilot, with a Nicolau precedence in place, will in the next merger, face the following challenges:

A vastly larger "opposing" pilot group
A position of being "purchased"
The purchasing airline is not in bankruptcy nor in danger thereof
Numerous financial statements and public comments from Company officers that the West operation is in trouble financially
A significantly larger number of widebody aircraft that will be protected
A Nicolau precedence wherein length of service is essentially ignored
The purchasing airline's pilots will be represented by ALPA
All of these issues will be faced by the West pilot in the next merger, likely coming in 2008; and without USAPA they will be faced with Nicolau precedence and only ALPA merger policy behind them. ALPA merger policy, the West pilot should recall, offers them no protection, sets no guidelines, gives them no guarantees; it offers only a process wherein the two sides negotiate, then it is handed to an arbitrator - this while National watches from on-high. Though they are loath to admit it, ALPA does not actually have a merger policy; all they have is a merger process. Within the process is some "feel good language" designed to give you the impression that there are protections and policies, but in the end, as has been stated by Prater on numerous occasions, ALPA merely administers a process, steps back, and watches the fur fly. They can't become involved because, after all, they represent both sides. (The very reason it is time for the US Airways pilots to have their own union!) According to ALPA "merger policy," an agreement which resulted in a seniority integration arranged by hair color would be fair, so long as the process was followed. ALPA holds up its "merger policy" which leads inevitably to arbitration, then blames the respective pilot groups for the outcome, an outcome which is a result of the policy. Bearing in mind the above challenges that will be faced by the West pilot in the coming merger, ALPA "merger policy" offers nothing in the form of protection.

Consider instead the West pilots' position with USAPA representing the pilot group. ALPA merger policy is designed strictly for ALPA vs. ALPA mergers, and does not apply to ALPA vs. Independent mergers. A high priority during negotiations with the Company will be the renegotiation of contractual protections in the event of a merger; such provisions are binding upon the Company. (You haven't, by the way, heard a word about this before, have you?) However, prior to successful negotiation of said provisions, merger seniority integration would be governed by Sections 2, 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions. ALPA merger policy will no longer be applicable, since that policy is restricted in its application to mergers between two ALPA-represented carriers. The Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions are (at this juncture) superior in the protection they provide (vs. ALPA's "protections") to the US Airways pilots. (Reference)

Further, with USAPA, the West pilot (and the East pilot) will be represented by a Collective Bargaining Agent that has enshrined in its Constitution and Bylaws definitive language that preserves "each pilot’s un-merged career expectations." This is much stronger language and protection than anything ALPA "merger policy" contains.

Though few of the West pilots believe it now, USAPA will be here for all pilots, East and West. We will be here (unlike ALPA) representing only the interests of US Airways pilots, offering definitive and quantifiable policies and protections, while ALPA offers only feel good language and process, caring not about results. USAPA does not care what is good for National, does not care what is good for CO, DAL, NWA, UAL or others, cares only about what's good for US Airways pilots and offers (finally) the right for the pilots to decide.

We are about choice, and you, the West pilot (just like the East pilot) will finally have control over your future, unconstrained by the mandates of a National "union" concerned only with its own survival. With USAPA, you will be guaranteed the right to ratify; in fact, only the pilots will have this power. With USAPA, you will have a representative from your seniority group, representing your interests. With USAPA, you will have a professional negotiator at the table, facing the Company's professional negotiator. With USAPA you will have a simplified, more efficient and more responsive committee structure. With USAPA you will no longer be supporting a bloated National bureaucracy, and the National gravy train will be eliminated. And because of the above efficiencies, with USAPA, your representation will cost you less.

We believe that recent events, meetings and correspondence prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that National is not representing either the East or the West; they are representing only National. Soon, the choice will be yours; a bloated bureaucracy concerned only with its own survival, or a dedicated group of representatives concerned only with changing the status quo for the better, and most importantly, a new union, beholden to no one, serving only the US Airways pilots.

Ironically, you will have this choice because USAPA exists. Finally, it's up to the pilots to decide.

 

[b737fo]

FYI. From the USAPA Website.

Thank you for posting that document from USAPA. It is about time they have said something to a major block of their desired constituency about what they represent. It has also given me great information in several of its points as to why I will vote for ALPA if the representation election comes around.

 

[flyinawa]

"Fine" you ask, "how does this affect me, a West pilot?" It affects you because (believe it or not) this new union, rising from the ashes and fury of the East pilots, will be there to protect you as well.

FYI. From the USAPA Website.

So....lemme see if I'm reading this right. Your merry band of East pilots are going to be looking out for MY interests and protecting......me? The "ashes" they are referring to is what they would like to see my career evolve into and the so called "fury" is the power grab to enable them to do it. Yeah. Only a complete moron would actually believe any of this drivel and vote for it. Had Nic given the Easties the DOH they so coveted, it would have completed the destruction of the AWA pilot's careers. You would all be carrying Prater around Philly on your shoulders and you'd all be wearing "Takin' it back" over your IDs instead of USAPA.

Please spare me. Your elected reps let you down. Not ALPA national.

 

[EastUS]

You would all be carrying Prater around Philly on your shoulders and you'd all be wearing "Takin' it back" over your IDs instead of USAPA.

I can understand where you might think that, but you're wrong. I can think of plentifull reasons for an east crowd to carry Prater somewhere......but they involve little celebration....if for nothing else?....perhaps just to search for our Alpo-surrendered pensions.

For a shoe swapping moment: You clearly feel that Alpo's the best agent to protect your interests, Nic, etc, and enhance your own situation at east expense: WHY would any east pilot in their right mind want to stay with Alpo? Given your voiced notions that the east'd be joyfully hoisting Alpo up in gleefull celebration with an alternate Nic result: I'll figure that that's pretty much what's going on in the wests' minds....but isn't actually reflective of east feelings. Alpo's been dysfunctional for a very, very long time.

As for "taking it back"? = Alpo's proven track record indicates a wholesale lack of the guts, brains, and determination to ever do anything of the sort. If you're thrilled with how things are in the airline industry for pilots these days...stick with Alpo...and watch it contine to get worse. All Alpo's ever offered the east amounts to "Smile, cheer up..things could be worse"...so we "smiled, cheered up..and sure enough?: Things got worse"

The list of Alpoid "crimes against commercial aviation professionals" is just too long to burn bandwidth on.

 

[Bud8EE]

With USAPA you will no longer be supporting a bloated National bureaucracy, and the National gravy train will be eliminated.

Yeah like Duane's million dollar house in Chevy Chase, MD. It must be nice to get a $350,000 dollar salary, $125,000 dollar expense account for housing and living on someone else's dime. He bought it for $500,000 on the due's payers dime and it is now assessed at over $1 million and when he dumps it, I am sure the proceeds of the $1 million plus will go back into the coffers of ALPA because hey, it is an upside down pyramid organization after all.

 

[EastUS]

Yeah like Duane's million dollar house in Chevy Chase, MD. It must be nice to get a $350,000 dollar salary, $125,000 dollar expense account for housing and living on someone else's dime. He bought it for $500,000 on the due's payers dime and it is now assessed at over $1 million and when he dumps it, I am sure the proceeds of the $1 million plus will go back into the coffers of ALPA because hey, it is an upside down pyramid organization after all.

Well..just look at all he did for line pilots though, and what his following Alpo acts have accomplished.....umm.....well.....nevermind. Let's just keep enriching these people because they're such great guys.

 

[luvn737s]

I hope you UAir employees continue to fight, not just for your airline but for an industry that doesn't deserve to be a victim of incompetence. Good luck and thanks for trying!"
luvn737s,

Above is your NIC fever post

Yep, you got me. At one time I was under the impression that the pilots of USAirways were an honorable group. I still believe that a large number of them are, save the U-SAPS contingent. But as you have proven, the pilots always avoid fighting the true threat and instead try to pick a soft target like their fellow pilots in the west (or their regional pilots) just so they can stroke their egos and show folks how tough they are.

The people I wrote that original post about (3 years ago) would have accepted that their gamble (the pilots were under the false impression it was negotiating) on DOH was lost and that the greater good for their pilots is to finish negotiating the contract as they agreed to and avoid endless legal challenges and expenses.

I guess in hindsight, maybe they do deserve the industry they've help craft.