AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[luvn737s]

Well..just look at all he did for line pilots though, and what his following Alpo acts have accomplished.....umm.....well.....nevermind. Let's just keep enriching these people because they're such great guys.

Look at what the east is doing for the other 54,000 airline pilots by doing all they can to perpetuate the lowest pay rates in the industry. I can just hear a managment type at any other airline, "If those USAir guys are willing to forego substantial raises, then that must be all an airline pilot is worth. And look, not a labor action in sight. I want some of what Parker's got!"

Industry-wide negotiating deadlock. Brought to you courtesy of U-SAPS. Where our motto is, "Let's keep the corruption just between U-S"

 

[luvn737s]

I can understand where you might think that, but you're wrong.

Hey EastUS, what kinda high horse you up on there cowboy?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Look at what the east is doing for the other 54,000 airline pilots by doing all they can to perpetuate the lowest pay rates in the industry. I can just hear a managment type at any other airline, "If those USAir guys are willing to forego substantial raises, then that must be all an airline pilot is worth. And look, not a labor action in sight. I want some of what Parker's got!"

Industry-wide negotiating deadlock. Brought to you courtesy of U-SAPS. Where our motto is, "Let's keep the corruption just between U-S"

Is that 54,000 ALPA pilots? Or what? Maybe if ALPA would take a lesson from the APA we wouldn't be trying to negotiate from a position of weakness. But then thats pattern bargaining for you.

Wow. Your applications of double standards never cease to amaze me. First we're sheep. Then liars and thieves. Now the anchor on the industry. Corruption at its best, but under whose principles have we been operating under? Can't wait to hear what else you're going to come up with next.

All you can blame is USAPA? We've only been around since late June of this year. Yet we're the reason for all the ills in the industry. You're so grasping at straws to derail this decert drive you will make up or say anything to protect your sacred ALPA. Is that what you're going to say during the campaign? It will be a pleasure watching you defend ALPA.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Look at what the east is doing for the other 54,000 airline pilots by doing all they can to perpetuate the lowest pay rates in the industry.

I guess you're referring to the rates that ALPA negotiated, after throwing out the East guys' retirement without so much as a vote?

It just seems stupid to me to leave your career in the hands of pilots from other airlines that know that they benefit when you suffer. I don't see why anyone would embrace the idea of a national union which is largely run and managed by your competition. Seems to me that it shouldn't even be legal to have such an organization. Maybe the reason that Pilot wages and working conditions have suffered so much lately is that the union itself is playing companies against each other.

 

[PhxMama]

Just a bystander but how can they say they feel a merger is either imminent or a done deal. Those are the kind of "FEELINGS" can get you in trouble if not true. JMHO.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Just a bystander but how can they say they feel a merger is either imminent or a done deal. Those are the kind of "FEELINGS" can get you in trouble if not true. JMHO.

"They" as in USAPA? Since you're a bystander your statement is understandable. However, we have been through and watched all this before. All the "signs" of a merger are there, you just have to pull it together. But failure to plan for the future would be a major mistake. Better to be prepared than not at all.

 

[PhxMama]

I understand being prepared but USAPA is looking to represent a whole pilot group and to possibly be wrong on something that has not been publicly announced is, in my opinion, not in anyones best interest. Better stated, a merger policy put in place when(if) they are voted in based on whatever your personal criteria, DOH or other. Merger rumours have been floating for a long time and will continue to circulate. I hope whatever comes down the pike, a new union or new company ALL pilots will receive the respect they deserve, fair compenstion and belief reinstated in their chosen careers.
Regards, Mama

 

[EastUS]

Yep, you got me. At one time I was under the impression that the pilots of USAirways were an honorable group. I still believe that a large number of them are, save the U-SAPS contingent. But as you have proven, the pilots always avoid fighting the true threat and instead try to pick a soft target like their fellow pilots in the west (or their regional pilots) just so they can stroke their egos and show folks how tough they are.

The people I wrote that original post about (3 years ago) would have accepted that their gamble (the pilots were under the false impression it was negotiating) on DOH was lost and that the greater good for their pilots is to finish negotiating the contract as they agreed to and avoid endless legal challenges and expenses.

I guess in hindsight, maybe they do deserve the industry they've help craft.

Whew! "Yep, you got me. At one time I was under the impression that the pilots of USAirways were an honorable group." OK, apparently the east's lack of interest in surrendering the St Nic gift up to you's fully changed your mind...an interesting world view on the concept of "honorable" methinks.

"The people I wrote that original post about (3 years ago) would have accepted.." They would have? You're joking, right? Who do you think is around here now? We've a fairly scarce amount of new hires with less than three years = zero of any such.

"DOH was lost and that the greater good for their pilots is to finish negotiating the contract as they agreed to and avoid endless legal challenges and expenses." I believe that inserting "the west pilots" versus "their pilots" would produce a more logical statement. A vast number of west posters love to speak of notions regarding "HONOR"; Exactly how much should any possible "endless legal challenges and expenses" diminish one's desire to be honorable in reality?

"the pilots always avoid fighting the true threat and instead try to pick a soft target like their fellow pilots in the west" That one's purely pathetic. The poor little west guys are now victims somehow?..and "a soft target"? I guess I've been easilly confused by all the "It's OVER!!"..."No fences"..."no negotiations".."Binding Arbitration!" etc/ad nauseum. My take on "the true threat" is that it's Alpo, and not the west pilots.

 

[AWA320]

Yeah I'm a newbie but I've been a long time lurker...

Ques was asked...

"Point well taken Jim and of those numbers how many are first officers and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??"

lets address the second half of that question...Wide body international F/O positions create Capt positions because the pilots that would fly as junior Capts fly in the right seat offering a better quality of life for the same if not more pay than a Reserve Capt.

Ok in a perfect world I see your point however in this case a guy who was on the street when this thing was announced is now flying 767 int'l so how did he create a capt poistion when he is on the new list jr to our most jr f/o who mind you WAS working while the returning street pilot was was still on the street??????

 

[EastUS]

I hope whatever comes down the pike, a new union or new company ALL pilots will receive the respect they deserve, fair compenstion and belief reinstated in their chosen careers.
Regards, Mama

Amen

 

[Phoenix]

... anything to protect your sacred ALPA.

Was it Nic's cruel hoax to create a precious list

 

[EastUS]

Ok in a perfect world I see your point however in this case a guy who was on the street when this thing was announced is now flying 767 int'l so how did he create a capt poistion when he is on the new list jr to our most jr f/o who mind you WAS working while the returning street pilot was was still on the street??????

What's a "street pilot"?

I assume that you mean guys/gals that were either working off mainline, or just plain furloughed with previous years of work for the company logged. "Previous years" as in = more time flown for the company than you've ever done.

 

[AWA320]

I'm naturally very impressed...but: How does that actually work with: "Yeah right I take my lead from you fine folks!!!" ? Are you, in any way, not responsible for your own actions? Do you just find yourself "cleaning the keyboard when it went off"?

QUOTE(N924PS @ Nov 4 2007, 08:41 AM
Talk about bad attitudes AWA 320, I think yours ranks right up there.

AWA320: "Yeah right I take my lead from you fine folks!!!"

N924PS:"You will get your Capt vacancy eventually. It just won't be at the expense of one of those 56 plus year old first officers."

AWA320: "Ok if you say so..."

Interesting. From that? = One might assume that you're fully intending to profit yourself at the expense of the aforementioned 56 year old first officers....how very noble/righteous/etc of you. Your esteemed cause, (I believe it's reffered to in AWA MEC-speak as "Righteous Positon"?), grows in both "HONOR" and purity with your every post.

"..and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??" My, My...now here's a fellow utterly obsessed with "capt positions". What is it now? = 3-5 whole years slaving away at AWA?...and you just can't wait to try and take a left seat....Sheesh. You might want to consider a larger career picture as well.

Sigh..This is gonna' take some time to work out.

The first thing you need to do is stop assuming! Just ask your question and I will gladly answer. Now I don't want anything at the expense of your 56 yr olds but I can't have you guys taking away from me either so where does that leave us?? I never expected the east to be stapled but can you honestly state that you didn't expect to get DOH????

The only way to sort out this mess with the least amout of our wasting millions of unnecessary dollars is to get what we need thru JNC talks. The attorneys are getting rich at our expense, management is getting rich at our expense so whne are we going to get rich at our expense??

 

[EastUS]

The first thing you need to do is stop assuming! Just ask your question and I will gladly answer. Now I don't want anything at the expense of your 56 yr olds but I can't have you guys taking away from me either so where does that leave us?? I never expected the east to be stapled but can you honestly state that you didn't expect to get DOH????

The only way to sort out this mess with the least amout of our wasting millions of unnecessary dollars is to get what we need thru JNC talks. The attorneys are getting rich at our expense, management is getting rich at our expense so whne are we going to get rich at our expense??

I have no answer that'll make both sides instantly happy. I doubt that anyone has. My opinion (and that's all this is) is that, for now, seperate operations seems to be the way to go. The west still seems adamant about Nic or nothing. To combine anything without serious adjustments to the Nic bs would poison this place in ways that I don't care to even imagine. I personally expected some variant on DOH with fenced protections and some slotting. Prior mergers were successfully accomplished that way. I didn't imagine pure DOH without protections for the west, nor do I want anything of the sort now,.....but no one could have realistically foreseen the Nic disaster under any circumstances. I say "disaster" because no one, east or west, can reasonably not see it for such anymore. We've been at each other's throats for half a year now. That's hardly anything beneficial to either group.

We're in full agreement about the lawyers and management, but galaxies apart in any expectations of some great contract being delivered by Alpo.....ever. In addition: I honestly believe, as apparently does upper management, that no contract's realistic to expect with the current Nic poison pill included. This certainly serves management very well..and our groups very poorly, but that's the reality of current circumstances as I see them. JNC talks are likely to offer up nothing acceptable to the east imho, and, even if any/all financial goals were far exceeded (yeah..right), would only be "good" untill the next bump in the airline road in any case. I'm convinced that the best thing now possible is to rid the place of Alpo for starters.

 

[freedom]

I can see the future for you

1. Get rid of the current union that you have now

2. Vote in the east “sham†union

3. Renegotiate the award to what is still a favorable win for the west but something ultimately not as unfair for the east and something that the east and west can live with .


That’s the fastest way to contract talks that I can see …A lot of west guys are going to scream “no no no!†but you know realistically that’s probably the only way things will move forward . Is what the East doing fair? No , but is it going to be effective ? Either you come to a compromise that both sides can live with , or you end up divided for a LONG , LONG LONG TIME …


p.s I know the west pilots will jump on here and say that they TRIED to come to a compromise etc (and they did try in good faith ), well all I can say is life isn’t fair and the east pilots seem to have come up with an effective way to block you . You can either accept that fact or try to remain in denial .Look when you renegotiate with them your still going to come out ahead , they know that , it’s just a matter of offering them enough to stop blocking .


These are just my own uninformed views .