AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[AWA320]

One can count the retirement numbers any number of ways. According to the latest bid results, there are 102 active line pilots retiring within 12 months of the effective date of the bid which is Feb 1, 2008. So those 102 line pilot retirements are for the period starting about Feb 15, 2008 and Feb 1, 2009 since Resourse Planning normally takes the retirees for the 1st half of the bid effective month out of the bid - they'll be flying their position for part of the month (Feb 2008 in this case) but not shown on the permanent bid roster for that month.

I don't have a current list of "supervisory" pilots, but would be surprised if more than 3 or 4 would be retiring in the same timeframe (and need to be replaced, creating vacancies for line pilots). So let's call it 105-110 active pilots retiring in the mid-Feb '08 thru Feb 1 '09 timeframe.

Retirements for the ranks of those out on medical are not worth worrying about. If they don't return to active status, their reaching retirement age won't create any movement for active pilots. If they do return prior to retirement, they'll "displace" into a position, absorbing a vacancy (or bumping another pilot from that position) before they then retire and leave that position vacant (a net wash).

That leaves only two sources of additional retirements - any pilots returning from furlough that aren't included in the bid results (are there any other than a few possibly being held at J4J positions?) and any pilots on leave of absence that could return then retire. Any returnees from furlough (or J4J) would be pretty junior and LOA returnees would be like those returning from medical - absorbing a vacancy first then creating the same vacancy when they retired so ultimately no effect.

Jim

Point well taken Jim and of those numbers how many are first officers and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??

 

[EastUS]

Naw I don't think so I surround myself with people that understand honoring their agreements and spend time with people that know the importance of being responsible for their actions!!

I'm naturally very impressed...but: How does that actually work with: "Yeah right I take my lead from you fine folks!!!" ? Are you, in any way, not responsible for your own actions? Do you just find yourself "cleaning the keyboard when it went off"?

QUOTE(N924PS @ Nov 4 2007, 08:41 AM
Talk about bad attitudes AWA 320, I think yours ranks right up there.

AWA320: "Yeah right I take my lead from you fine folks!!!"

N924PS:"You will get your Capt vacancy eventually. It just won't be at the expense of one of those 56 plus year old first officers."

AWA320: "Ok if you say so..."

Interesting. From that? = One might assume that you're fully intending to profit yourself at the expense of the aforementioned 56 year old first officers....how very noble/righteous/etc of you. Your esteemed cause, (I believe it's reffered to in AWA MEC-speak as "Righteous Positon"?), grows in both "HONOR" and purity with your every post.

"..and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??" My, My...now here's a fellow utterly obsessed with "capt positions". What is it now? = 3-5 whole years slaving away at AWA?...and you just can't wait to try and take a left seat....Sheesh. You might want to consider a larger career picture as well.

Sigh..This is gonna' take some time to work out.

 

[Black Flag]

Yeah I'm a newbie but I've been a long time lurker...

Ques was asked...

"Point well taken Jim and of those numbers how many are first officers and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??"

lets address the second half of that question...Wide body international F/O positions create Capt positions because the pilots that would fly as junior Capts fly in the right seat offering a better quality of life for the same if not more pay than a Reserve Capt.

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah I'm a newbie but I've been a long time lurker...

Ques was asked...

"Point well taken Jim and of those numbers how many are first officers and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??"

lets address the second half of that question...Wide body international F/O positions create Capt positions because the pilots that would fly as junior Capts fly in the right seat offering a better quality of life for the same if not more pay than a Reserve Capt.

Bingo.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Point well taken Jim and of those numbers how many are first officers and do you think that f/o vacancies create capt positions??

Like I said before, the retirements can be sliced and diced any number of ways. To me, pay is probably the best way since QOL issues are an individual decision - some would rather be a junior 737 reserve capt and others would rather be a 330 F/O. Take Group II and above Capts/A330 F/O's on one side and everything else on the other - the fiirst makes Group II capt pay or above, the other makes less.

Using that breakdown, there are 70 "Capt pay" retirements between about Feb 15 '08 and Feb 1 '09 (if I counted right). Notice that this is a different time period than that for the 77 Capt retirements everyone else is discussing.

One thing I omitted in the earlier pose - early retirements. That's a number that's unknowable in advance - I know of no public list of of those that have put in for early retirement, and under the East contract they can change their mind up to the day they actually retire.

Finally, to clarify the wording of what Black Flag said - a retirement from A330 F/O creates a Capt pay vacancy, not necessarily a Capt vacancy, because of the pay. That retirement may or may not result in a Capt vacancy, depending on who fills it and the "trickle down" from that. That's partly why I used the division I did and not the Capt/everyone else division.

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Who do you suppose got you the pay rates you enjoyed during your "good times"? The arrogant never give credit to those upon whose shoulders they stand.

Please tell me what U-SAPS has done. I can look back at the successful labor fights at Eastern, Pan Am, NWA, and many others whose sacrifices lead to the industry leading pay scales you harvested, but you'll have to fill me in on the accomplishments of U-SAPS and those who promote it.

Do not forget to add to the list, Braniff, Frontier (original Frontier) and TWA. Most of the original Usairways pilots flew with these pilots. While they were holding the line, your pilots were working for nothing for years, flying drugs and scabbing to keep your sorry hinders in business. That is why we are drawing the line now.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You missed the point. The company will be hesitant to begin negotiations with a union when there is the very real chance it won't be around in a year. You can continue to provide amusement for them, or you can begin the real work of negotiating a contract that serves all the membership.

Obviously the east still hasn't lost enough to take the situation seriously. They are still playing with Monopoly money; spending what others in the past earned for them (i.e scope and retirement giveaways). Now they giveaway the opportunity to capture real gains. They let U-SAPS flourish at their expense (literally).

I didn't miss anything, in fact I think if you looked at your original statements, I answered what you asked. So if you want to interject additional questions, I will be happy to address them.

The company wants a deal ASAP. The next merger is coming. Doug and the Zoomie have stated they don't care who the bargaining rep is. But amusement? Naw. They just want the deal. I don't think waiting is in the cards. Like the new contract just waiting to be presented when we file for an election.

Thats a real funny statement about ALPA being reelected in a year. First off, the bulk of the new hires are ALPA Pilots from the commuters. I really think you should talk to a few of those guys before saying anything pro-ALPA. ALPA gets elected on the commuter properties by promising the moon and settling for crap. Besides, I think it's about 5-6 years before the west has a majority of the original pilot group, all thanks to attrition.

Scope? Retirement giveaways? You really are hilarious trying to support ALPA. You just made the best case I know of for a new union. All of the east posters have said over and over that is one of the major reasons for dumping ALPA and electing USAPA. Thank you for realizing the need to dump ALPA!! Got your card in yet?

 

[nostradamus]

Who do you suppose got you the pay rates you enjoyed during your "good times"? The arrogant never give credit to those upon whose shoulders they stand.

So now you say your contract got blown away by the wind (jetstream maybe?). The record shows the majority of pilots agreeing to give away their gains (which they never really fought for) so that they wouldn't have to worry about what a judge might do. What wind was that?

So now a group of folks, U-SAPS, bent solely on vengeance plans to build support, when all they have delivered so far is delay; delay in filing for an election "and delay in negotiations because they pulll the strings of the AAA MEC (which is all the reason necessary for National to take the wheel and restore order). Please tell me what U-SAPS has done. I can look back at the successful labor fights at Eastern, Pan Am, NWA, and many others whose sacrifices lead to the industry leading pay scales you harvested, but you'll have to fill me in on the accomplishments of U-SAPS and those who promote it.

luvn737s
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Posted on: May 28 2004, 06:20 PM

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Airline tickets are a commodity. The sensible thing to do would be to shut down USAirways and start up fresh since there seems to be no value in a name or reputation, only being the first airline to pop up on Travelocity.

That would reward UAir management for poor performance and prove to any future employees of UAirs successor that loyalty and pride are antiquated "legacies" that have no place in the modern airline world.

I hope you UAir employees continue to fight, not just for your airline but for an industry that doesn't deserve to be a victim of incompetence. Good luck and thanks for trying!"


luvn737s,

Above is your NIC fever post

 

[BoeingBoy]

Above is your NIC fever post

Only you could read something about "NIC" in that post......

Jim

 

[EastUS]

luvn737s
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Posted on: May 28 2004, 06:20 PM

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Airline tickets are a commodity. The sensible thing to do would be to shut down USAirways and start up fresh since there seems to be no value in a name or reputation, only being the first airline to pop up on Travelocity.

That would reward UAir management for poor performance and prove to any future employees of UAirs successor that loyalty and pride are antiquated "legacies" that have no place in the modern airline world.

I hope you UAir employees continue to fight, not just for your airline but for an industry that doesn't deserve to be a victim of incompetence. Good luck and thanks for trying!"
luvn737s,

Above is your NIC fever post

"I hope you UAir employees continue to fight, not just for your airline but for an industry that doesn't deserve to be a victim of incompetence. Good luck and thanks for trying!" And now..Alpo's great, any fighting by the east's totally innapropriate...and...geezuess...Words just fail me :blink:

 

[AAA73Pilot]

So now a group of folks, U-SAPS, bent solely on vengeance plans to build support, when all they have delivered so far is delay; delay in filing for an election and delay in negotiations because they pull the strings of the AAA MEC (which is all the reason necessary for National to take the wheel and restore order). Please tell me what U-SAPS has done. I can look back at the successful labor fights at Eastern, Pan Am, NWA, and many others whose sacrifices lead to the industry leading pay scales you harvested, but you'll have to fill me in on the accomplishments of U-SAPS and those who promote it.

Luckily USAPA doesn't run on your schedule. Maybe you should consider the sources before saying the filing is/was delayed. There is a lot more to it than just jumping in with both feet. Your goading, to me, is translated as insecurity. The more you post the better I feel it will lead to an election.

The negotiations part is really cute. USAPA doesn't pull the strings of the MEC. Luckily the MEC is doing what it thinks best in representing its pilots. Somewhat mis-guided in my opinion, but still they think they are trying their best. I hope they continue. Right now time is on our side.

All USAPA is doing is collecting cards. When we force the election, then you will get to see what we have planned. if you like it vote for us. If not, vote for ALPA. At least you will get a vote. Especially if USAPA is elected as the bargaining rep.

Where is Eastern and PanAm? Did those guys tell you anything about how ALPA also screwed them too? Especially the PanAm lawsuit with Delta and ALPA. Wonder how much the settlement was in that case? Per pilot. As for NWA, I guess you missed the part on the USAPA website that we are starting to provide an information exchange with a new decert effort over there. Kind of interesting isn't it?

 

[nostradamus]

Only you could read something about "NIC" in that post......

Jim

This reminded me of you, Jim. The last two times I dared to stand up to you I was given cornfield time, I am putting you on ignore, you are a protected species and remind me of the Swiss, a lot of neutrality when the Germans were advancing on Europe.


My friends believe that people who know many facts and figures are very intelligent. I think that this isn’t necessarily so. What do you think?
—Cherilyn Alder, Aliso Viejo, Calif.

I agree with you. Knowing “facts and figures” indicates a good memory, not unusual intelligence, and it correlates with a desire to impress others or a bit of obsessive-compulsiveness. In contrast, great intelligence reflects an exceptional ability to reason and to process information, although it does require a fine memory as well.

 

[EastUS]

Only you could read something about "NIC" in that post......

Jim

Fully agreed that Nic's not mentioned. It must however be noted that the pre and post Nic periods certainly led to some rather interesting changes in the poster's outlook. Is "I got mine..so everything's great" truly the norm in Alpo? nevermind...I recall that you were a great proponent of slotting, and "relative seniority" via the Piedmont merger...since you were Piedmont. Small wonder that you've acquired an AWA fan club following.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

remind me of the Swiss,

You have a problem with the Swiss?

Lame A** analogy. Try again.

You may think your pay is more important than you life but some people lived through that time.

What exactly are you saying?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Fully agreed that Nic's not mentioned.

Not only not mentioned.....but let's dissect that post a little more.

Posted on: May 28 2004, 06:20 PM

About a year before the merger was announced. Nic only became a possibility after the merger announcement.

Airline tickets are a commodity. The sensible thing to do would be to shut down USAirways and start up fresh since there seems to be no value in a name or reputation, only being the first airline to pop up on Travelocity.

How many times has it been said that a large majority of passengers only care about price - "the first airline to pop up on Travelocity"?

That would reward UAir management for poor performance and prove to any future employees of UAirs successor that loyalty and pride are antiquated "legacies" that have no place in the modern airline world.

I read this as referring to the liquidation of US - that would be a fitting reward for poor management that had no use for employee loyalty and pride, seeing long-term employees as a liability.

I hope you UAir employees continue to fight, not just for your airline but for an industry that doesn't deserve to be a victim of incompetence. Good luck and thanks for trying!

What "fight" was going on in May 2004 - scope relief to outsource the E170's (and re-furlough the furloughees) and negotiations that would lead to LOA 93. Unfortunately, both were approved - so much for continuing to fight.....

So not only is Nic not mentioned, Nic wasn't even envisioned as a possibility when the post was made. How anyone can attempt to tie Nic to that post is beyond my comprehension.

Jim