ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[EastUS]

USS Scott (DDG-995)- first US military presence on station off the coast of Kuwait, August 1990.

August of '90..ah yes: "Hey kids/sports fans!...trade your pink cards in for green ones again and come back full time" started to be a popular refrain everywhere..I recall it well Seriously..Thanks for your Service. Did you get much of a view of things from the ship? There were impressive "fireworks" that I'd think easilly visible from the first night after kickoff onward. You guys/gals presumably contributed to them as well, as I'd assume that you were left on station for months.

In any case = we'll work this out. You almost just came dangerously close to establishing some slight degree of common "ground" allready

 

[prechilill]

August of '90..ah yes: "Hey kids/sports fans!...trade your pink cards in for green ones again and come back full time" started to be a popular refrain everywhere..I recall it well Seriously..Thanks for your Service. Did you get much of a view of things from the ship? There were impressive "fireworks" that I'd think easilly visible from the first night onward. You guys presumably contributed to them as well.

In any case = we'll work this out. You almost just came dangerously close to establishing some slight degree of common "ground" allready

Everyone has a story to tell. One day perhaps I could hear yours. And talking about pink and green cards- you are dating us both. It's now a "CAC" card.

 

[EastUS]

Everyone has a story to tell. One day perhaps I could hear yours. And talking about pink and green cards- you are dating us both. It's now a "CAC" card.

Shucks Ma'am..I've been out of the "business" for awhile now..and I'm just a poor senile and antique eastie who's addled ramblings and seniority's of no concern anyway...

We'll eventually work this mess out, and hopefully, have a collectively brighter future than has thus far seemed possible.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Interesting e-mail. FYI:

Dear Phillypilots:

After months of reading the propaganda from the "Concerned Pilots" and ALPA
National, there is one theme that runs through the whole thing. Only ALPA can
represent us and without ALPA, we are in deep doo doo!
They make no secret that they don't need the majority on the East to vote
for ALPA, just 50% plus 1. And that is if that 50% plus 1 votes with the AWA
pilots.

That was what the Wilson Poll was all about. To target a group within a
certain seniority to vote for ALPA.
That is the minority on the East to vote with the West. Now you know why the
Wilson Poll called numerous times. It was not to ask your opinion, but to
register your answer and have some very smart people go over those answers to
target you. That's how much they need us to stay in ALPA.

Make no mistake, if we leave and are successful, watch how quickly the pilots
at other ALPA carriers form their own version of USAPA. John Prater and Chris
Beebe will have to go back to work for the same money you and I make.

But what does ALPA still offer us? All that is left that our MEC can give us
is to remain the status quo. We were ordered back to the negotiating table or
face receivership. The West refuses to negotiate and ALPA national says
nothing. Does that tell you what the future holds?

If the vote goes against USAPA, the status quo will evaporate like our
pensions. As I said in my last opinion piece, the forces of the Company, ALPA
national and the AWA MEC will combine to implement the Nicolau Award. What can we do
then? USAPA will be gone...can't go back to that. Grieve it? How? When? ALPA
National will defend it. They have to by law. But not if they are not our
bargaining agent.

How is ALPA and the Concerned pilots working to get that 50% plus 1?

FEAR...CONFUSION....DEMORALIZATION! That is the key.

--- They tell us USAPA is being secretly run by the RC4. That should get a
few score to vote for ALPA. After all, the fact that it's not true should have
no bearing. As long as they keep saying it, some will believe it.
DISINFORMATION

--- They tell us they can't get insurance. Put fear into the people that have
a precondition - some more support. USAPA is getting the insurance, but you
won't hear that from a Concerned Pilot. FEAR

--- They tell us we will be sued by the AWA pilots. How? They would each have
to pay for it out of their own pockets and they are complaining about having
to pay a few hundred dollars assessment now. Watch how fast they change their
mind when they are forced to pay $10,000 each out of their own pockets. That's
only $1.7 million. Not much when you are paying lawyers for years. Of course,
they will be suing their own union which they will be required to finance.
FEAR

--- You can't negotiate seniority. Wrong. Seniority is included in all ALPA
contracts as "Date of Hire." DISINFORMATION

--- If we merge with another ALPA Carrier, we will have to go to arbitration
to merge our seniority. I know, ALPA's merger policy has worked so well for us
so far. DISINFORMATION

--- USAPA will not be able to operate because they won't have the financing.
I guess we will just have to muddle along on a miserly $11 million dollars a
year. Well, there goes the $50,000 per MEC meeting. FEAR

These are just a few of the "Concerned Pilots" concerns. What does it all add
up to? ALARMISTS.

You can spend your whole life afraid of "what ifs" or you can take charge of
your fears and meet them head on.

Just my opinion,

XXXXXXXXXX

 

[EastUS]

Interesting e-mail.

Fair's fair now; without "Fear and Disinformation"..they'd have nothing to "sell". Can ANYONE actually recall ever hearing from any Alpa rep: "Hey guys..this is the company's supposedly best offer..but I think we can do better if we just hang tough!..You guys up for that"??? My recollections are more on the line of: "Lawdy! Lawdy!..You couldn't possibly understand this..but we just HAD to give everything up..and all for your own good..or it would've been even WORSE without our total surrender!"

I've asked even the most strident Alpa supporters to post any truly compelling reasons for keeping Alpa..and there's always an amazing silence.......

PS: An extract from one of the latest council letters: "This civil war of union representation is eating away at our ability to fight the real enemy, a company that is unjustly and
maliciously denying us parity by taking advantage of our union instability." That'd ALMOST be a good sound bite, BUT; Why'd we go two plus years before they even seemed to notice any problems with the respective pay rates? It would seem that, despite their proven inability to put anything together other than the monstrous Nic baby..that all we needs do is to "trust them" yet again..and all will be well. Disinformation at it's best..and..the saga continues...

Let's VOTE!!!

 

[sharktooth]

Fair's fair now; without "Fear and Disinformation"..they'd have nothing to "sell". Can ANYONE actually recall ever hearing from any Alpa rep: "Hey guys..this is the company's supposedly best offer..but I think we can do better if we just hang tough!"??? My recollections are more on the line of: "Lawdy! Lawdy!..You couldn't possibly understand this..but we just HAD to give everything up..and all for your own good..or it would've been even WORSE without our total surrender!" I've asked even the most strident Alpa supporters to post any truly compelling reasons for keeping Alpa..and there's always an amazing silence.......

Interesting how the east pilots surrendered "everything" to "save" the company, per ALPA, and ended up within a couple of percent of AWA compensation. Coincidence? You decide.

 

[dariencc]

PS: An extract from one of the latest council letters: "This civil war of union representation is eating away at our ability to fight the real enemy, a company that is unjustly and
maliciously denying us parity by taking advantage of our union instability." That'd ALMOST be a good sound bite, BUT; Why'd we go two plus years before they even seemed to notice any problems with the respective pay rates?

In the future, please refrain from pointing out the stupidity of Alpo's madcap communications blitz, even if you are right. The end result could be official charges of disloyalty, and we know you wouldn't want that!

 

[EastUS]

In the future, please refrain from pointing out the stupidity of Alpo's madcap communications blitz, even if you are right. The end result could be official charges of disloyalty, and we know you wouldn't want that!

Gulp!..Point taken...(looks furtively over both shoulders and slinks quickly into the shadows loudly singing: "I'm an Alpa-Doodle Dandy!!..I'm an Alpa-Doodle Boy!")...anything to enhance perceived "Loyalty" during this dark time of Purges and Inquisitions MUST be done

I suppose that the following refrain's likely "innapropriate"....??

"...A life-time "member" up at NO-tionol...Born on the side of a $ Buck $.....Alpa-Doodle came from Herndon just to keep the dues funds...Prater's that Alpa-Doodle $uck $"

 

[Phoenix]

Gulp!..Point taken...(looks furtively over both shoulders and slinks quickly into the shadows loudly singing: "I'm an Alpa-Doodle Dandy!!..I'm an Alpa-Doodle Boy!")...anything to enhance perceived "Loyalty" during this dark time of Purges and Inquisitions MUST be done

I suppose that the following refrain's likely "innapropriate"....??

"...A life-time "member" up at NO-tionol...Born on the side of a $ Buck $.....Alpa-Doodle came from Herndon just to keep the dues funds...Prater's that Alpa-Doodle $uck $"

"ALPO-Doodles"!

Sorta like "Kibles and Bits", or "Kennel Rations" or "Purina DC".

 

[oldiebutgoody]

"ALPO-Doodles"!

Sorta like "Kibles and Bits", or "Kennel Rations" or "Purina DC".

Actually, for the ALPA National guys, it's more like the "Gravy Train".

 

[nostradamus]

John Prater, alpa leader, was quite involved as a Continental pilot with their independent union. The ICAP (Independent Association of Continental Pilots) merged with alpa in 2001. He was the Vice President of this union.

Captain Prater is forcing an emergency trusteeship on the Philadelphia local council 41 claiming they are not fully supporting alpa and fully denouncing the organizational efforts of the USAPA. When he was organizing the ICAP alpa merger they played by different rules and alpa at the time was quick to point out the legality of it.

"ALPA says that there is no legal theory preventing IACP officers from expressing views supporting the merger and the IACP constitution and by-laws does not require a membership vote for a "showing of interest" as required for a Board election."

Interesting tid bits from the NMB web page, click here.

"This is like deja vu all over again."
-- Yogi Berra

But deja vu in reverse this time.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Our dues at work again. Now we have a new web site offering up FUD. Check this out at http://www.votealpa.org oh BTW you have to be a member in good standing to log on Makes sense to me.

From page 1.

If you remain with ALPA, you will get…

1. More money in your pockets
2. More professional negotiators working for you
3. More protection during future industry consolidation
4. More health and retirement benefits for your family
5. More experience and reliability in workplace safety and security issues

You have got to be kidding me.

1. Huh? I'm sure Doug is going to give us everything we want because we're ALPA. How does that work?
2. Professional negotiators? Like Donn B.? Only in his mind. Those stellar pro's negotiating LOA93 I suppose.
3. With a merger policy that is really only "guidelines". DL-NW for the latest example of merger policy.
4. ALPA is now in the health insurance business? Retirement benefits? How does that work again?
5. Replaceable. Who are the front line people? Thats right, they are us.

I love these guys and gals at ALPA. They never cease to amaze me.

Don't like what we do? Too bad, they will just put you in trusteeship til you see the light!!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Interesting mail. FYI:

Dear Mr. Prater:

It has been decided that a short response to your threat is allowable as follows:

I find your threat directly conflicts with the very foundation ALPA was built upon and I am very disappointed that you would be a willing party to anything this contrary to the overall good of the membership. Your charge that I do not support ALPA is not only fictitious but appears to be trumped up for your own political purpose. I personally spoke to you less than three weeks ago and told you my feelings about ALPA and the National Officers within ALPA. I could not possible have been more clear with you. I even stopped after making the statement and said, “Now John, I’m going to repeat that so there is no possible confusion or misunderstanding. I believe in ALPA and support ALPA. I disrespect certain officers within the association, including you. But, the association itself is important, needs to continue and needs to be fixed.â€

Somehow, you took that to mean that I don’t support ALPA. You amaze me John. YOU are the problem – not ALPA.

I find the methods of the officers of ALPA National to be misguided. This latest attack from you and your band is just another example of what is wrong with the leadership of ALPA. For some reason, you mistook my discontent with the leadership to be lack of support for ALPA. Why is that John?

Approximately three years ago I was a part of a group so discontent with the leadership of ALPA that we filed a lawsuit against ALPA for $1.2 billion. At an MEC meeting Bill Pollock told me that if I don’t like what the MEC is doing that I should run for office and get elected. So, I did – twice.

No one charged me with being non supportive of ALPA when I ran for election and won. Quite the contrary, I won because I voiced the problems that needed to be fixed and I vowed to fix the problems within ALPA as best I could. Now let me say that again, John, so there is no confusion: ‘I vowed to fix the problems within ALPA as best I could.†You do see the difference between that statement and any claim by you that I vow to replace ALPA or not support ALPA? There is a huge difference, John.

You have threatened to remove me as an elected officer of Council 41 four days prior to the Federal Court hearing on March 7, 2008 in which ALPA National is a defendant. Some may conclude that this is an act of retribution on the part of ALPA National. What are your thoughts, John?

The timing of your threat to put Council 41 is trusteeship is also revealing. Many believe that you’re acting in desperation of the upcoming AAA MEC elections and that you are concerned that the results may not go the way you want. So your solution is to remove the votes you suspect may not go your way and replace them with votes you approve. Election manipulation is the way most will view your activities.

ALPA is an association for the good of the membership. I have been a member in good standing for twenty years. I have served ALPA in many ways including volunteering my time as an elected representative of council 41. I have voiced opposition when I see the leadership abusing their power or authority and I will continue to do exactly that. I am proud to represent council 41 and your administrative action to remove me as a representative can not alter that. Fighting against the implementation of the Nicolau award IS REPRESENTING Council 41 and IS representing the vast majority of AAA. You just don’t get it.

I will not be a participant in your meeting on March 3rd. I am never a willing participant to anything I see as a violation of Duty. You will do what you will do and you will live with it forever. The entire airline world is watching this manipulation and certainly all of US Airways is watching.

I have never been non supportive of ALPA despite your trumped up and misguided accusations. ALPA needs to be fixed. The way to fix ALPA is not through Trusteeship. In fact, I am certain it will have the opposite effect at this critical time. Why would you do something so questionable?

So, this is likely my last full day as a council 41 representative because of you. But, I did my job proudly and do not regret a single word written or spoken. I will continue to be a pilot advocate for as long as I am a pilot. My support for the pilot group is not something that you can take away.

/S/, S/T
Council 41

 

[end_of_alpa]

John McIlvenna, the NEW leader for the West pilots, who proclaims that...

"The basic conundrum can be summed up with the following statement: The East seeks a seniority solution, while the West seeks an economic one. Clearly, we are at an impasse with seniority versus economic solutions. USAPA has not yet offered a realistic solution, nor are the two MECs able to immediately come to a solution that will work and be ratified; however, the important distinction is that the two MECs keep trying."

Keep trying??? For how long? Separate operations??? For how long?

Clearly, we are at an impasse with seniority versus economic solutions. WE AGREE!!! I'm sure USAPA agrees with Jon!

USAPA has not yet offered a realistic solution???? Where the HE11 has HE BEEN?

"I think we all need to start listening to our collective pilots and start asking them what they all think a solution should look like.......I intend to go on this road trip to try and find out what all our pilots are thinking and what they think the solution should be if they will let their guards down and speak frankly about the problems we face.....it seems everyone is forgetting that solutions are out there but a lot of people have stopped listening"

This is JUST what USAPA HAS BEEN DOING!!! HASN'T HE BEEN "LISTENING"? HASN'T 1,700 pilots plus the ACPC plus the MEC'S plus ALPA National been listnening?

USAPA has provided EVERYTHING AND MORE than what ALPA currently provides....EVERYTHING...., EXCEPT for one thing.....GIVING AWAY WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS NOT ENTITLED TO...AN ECONOMIC SOLUTION BEFORE, AGAIN BEFORE....A SENIORITY SOLUTION!!

"I have learned one very important lesson – in the end, it is up to the rank-and-file members to make up their collective minds on the direction they want their organization to go."

Funny, but THAT is the "SOLUTION" +3,200 pilots have determined! You know, the COLLECTIVE MAJORITY of the "STUPID, DUMB, IGNORANT, UNINFORMED, STUPID (DID THEY SAY STUPID, ALREADY?) pilots of the "rank and file"?

A LONG-TERM SOLUTION OVER A SHORT-TERM FIX. That's the difference!

The principles of Seniority and Economics are INTERTWINED....not just ONE OR THE OTHER or LATER OVER THE FORMER!!! IT's the ACTION then the REACTION!

http://jmcilvenna.wordpress.com/

Because the West NAIVELY believes that you can have an "economic" solution WITHOUT seniority while the East KNOWS that you CAN ONLY achieve the SECOND, an economic solution, by ESTABLISHING THE FIRST SOLUTION...SENIORITY! OUR DOH is NOT FOR SALE!!! NOT THE WEST, NOR THE EAST'S!! Hence the "cart before the horse" logic currently in play. THIS IS WHAT UNIONISM IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT!!!

Remember, what the NWA pilots say, pilots already EVALUATING A MERGER, says it all:

Northwest pilots, who took steep pay cuts before the airline emerged from bankruptcy May 31, have been widely expected to get raises in a consolidation.

"Seniority is not for sale," the Northwest pilot update said. "It makes no sense to trade seniority, which is long-term, for contractual improvements which can be very short term," with the risk that raises given today can be taken away later with the threat of bankruptcy.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/02/27/ap4706636.html

Ole Jonny Mac, Jack "pulp fiction" Stephan and the MEC's of BOTH SIDES are out of touch with reality!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Really??!!!!

So this applies to everyone, and not just when you're the messenger. Right?

Jetz and Bear,

You have never seen me attack you personally. I disagree with the messages you post. Like I disagree with you now. Reread the context of the conversation (previous posts)

Signed, 1/2 of the clown duo.

So yes, I am right.