ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[nostradamus]

John McIlvenna, the NEW leader for the West pilots, who proclaims that...

http://jmcilvenna.wordpress.com/

Because the West NAIVELY believes that you can have an "economic" solution WITHOUT seniority while the East KNOWS that you CAN ONLY achieve the SECOND, an economic solution, by ESTABLISHING THE FIRST SOLUTION...SENIORITY! OUR DOH is NOT FOR SALE!!! NOT THE WEST, NOR THE EAST'S!! Hence the "cart before the horse" logic currently in play. THIS IS WHAT UNIONISM IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT!!!

Ole Jonny Mac, Jack "pulp fiction" Stephan and the MEC's of BOTH SIDES are out of touch with reality!

Ok Johnny Appleseed travel throughout the country, but may I remind you of your quote in The New York Times article February 27th;


"If that happens", said John McIlvenna, who heads the union local for the 1,500 former America West pilots, “we will be in all-out warfare.”

Your imperialistic attitude never ends.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

"If that happens", said John McIlvenna, who heads the union local for the 1,500 former America West pilots, “we will be in all-out warfare.â€￾

Classic carrot and stick routine. I want to "Hear" how you will sacrifice for the Mothership or else. Can't wait to meet him. NOT
There is nothing left to say under ALPA representation. Especially now. I wonder if Prater is going to join him?

 

[flynomore]

Crikey! what is the point of a listening tour if you are the one doing all the talking?

Scott Kirby stated that there is no economic solution to satisfy the seniority one. Remember the "lottery ticket you can't cash" comment and the fact that both ALPA must individually vote yes to implement.

Famous Dave's class was slotted into US Air pilots that were never furloughed after now 20 years of service. Dave now is in his third year, correct? Those US Air pilots will forever bid behind all the AWA pilots. What economic incentive could you possibly offer to mollify that loss?

So we are where we are.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Crikey! what is the point of a listening tour if you are the one doing all the talking?

Scott Kirby stated that there is no economic solution to satisfy the seniority one. Remember the "lottery ticket you can't cash" comment and the fact that both ALPA must individually vote yes to implement.

Famous Dave's class was slotted into US Air pilots that were never furloughed after now 20 years of service. Dave now is in his third year, correct? Those US Air pilots will forever bid behind all the AWA pilots. What economic incentive could you possibly offer to mollify that loss?

So we are where we are.

Can you tell me where Kirby said that? Was it on the tape or was it in print?

Thanks.

 

[flynomore]

One of the crew news items I believe.

 

[end_of_alpa]

USAPA.

If that happens, said John McIlvenna, who heads the union local for the 1,500 former America West pilots, “we will be in all-out warfare.â€￾

Bring it on, John!

You just slip out the back, Jack (Stephan)
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free (from ALPA)

Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free (from ALPA)

 

[AAA73Pilot]

FYI:

Update for March 2, 2008

Captain Prater, you’re lined up for the closed runway!

Fellow Philadelphia Pilots,

Desperation is an emotional trait which is manifested from fear. Acts of desperation are more often than not reckless in nature. Once again, our pilot group is being subjected to another round of these desperate, reckless actions which are being perpetrated by the same “Cast of Characters.†This “Cast of Characters,†many in longtime union leadership positions, are the same characters who have brought us the lengthy list of concessionary LOA’s over the past several years, while selling the elixir as, “It’s our only choice.†In actuality, it was the only choice because our leadership would never consider the alternative – fighting for our pilot’s welfare. There is absolutely no need for this type of behavior within the decision making process.

False claims, accusations, revisionist writing, arrogance, and fear-mongering are again rearing their ugly heads. These desperate acts do not bode well for our Association. Do not stoop to the level of the individuals who have a history of displaying these types of behavior. There is no changing a mind closed due to fear. Actions which promote political agendas are not, by nature, good for the welfare of the entire group. Protecting the power and benefits of a leadership position at all costs will never well serve any pilot group.

Our dissenting opinions at the MEC table and to our National Association have been the equivalent of saying: “Captain, you are lined up for a closed runway!†We in PHL have tried for years to raise the awareness of both the membership and the leadership. Unfortunately, there has been no corrective action to our warnings. It is entirely possible that this may be a case of subtle incapacitation, or worse yet arrogance, by our leadership. Our efforts have been, and will continue to be, for the pilots we represent – first and foremost.

We know that you, the pilots of Philadelphia, will remain steadfast in your convictions and principles. Educate yourself by acquiring all of the facts. Think long term. Stay on task and message. The issues and decisions that need to be made have been clearly defined. Reject the political grandstanding you will certainly witness in the days and weeks ahead.

Ensuring no witnesses to the upcoming scenario

The timing of the emergency trusteeship is blatantly transparent. This week’s 1st Quarter MEC Meeting is the most important of our two year cycle. MEC Officer Elections, along with the selection of Committee Chairmen, will set the course and tone for the next two years of representation. Eliminating the PHL reps’ dissenting opinions will certainly assure the status quo. While some may believe this beneficial to the Association, your PHL reps believe just the opposite. The negative profound implication of subverting the democratic process will certainly produce detrimental consequences for our Association. This becomes merely gerrymandering an election.

Another important issue we face at this week’s MEC meeting is that of the China Flying. The company has requested relief from the 16-hour duty day limit in the scheduling section of our contract. The Company’s proposal includes tentacles which have the tremendous potential to spread throughout both West and East operations and set precedents which may be extremely difficult to un-do. The implications of this “quick-fix†change in language are very broad to all of our current and future international flying. In our view, the scope of the relief should be very, very narrow, and we MUST receive major returns.

This is Negotiating 101. Unfortunately, we seem to have collectively forgotten this basic principle over the last few concessionary years.

Finally, the Blue Ribbon/GDR/Steering Group stands ready to re-engage at a moments notice. This was clearly demonstrated by the fact that ONLY they, and not the entire MEC, were briefed on the China Proposal.

This group has morphed into a Shadow Joint MEC/NC with no oversight.

While you may hear a lot of rhetoric about separate operations and separate MEC’s within ALPA, nothing could be further from the truth. The template for the combination has already been set. While your PHL reps believe there may be an opportunity to attain durable solutions to mutual problems, it must not be done under false pretenses. We have developed a set of engagement criteria that if agreed upon, have the potential to produce a durable solution. But it must be done with the concurrence of ALL US Airways pilot’s direct representatives.

Your PHL reps will be at the 1st Quarter MEC meeting in CLT tomorrow morning prepared to continue to advocate on your behalf.

You elected us only – only you should remove us.

Line of Communications Will Remain Open

We have amassed over 1000 of your e-mail contacts over the past three years. We thank you for your continuing support. Many of these communications are extremely moving, and they provide us with the determination to continue our quest to ensure pilot representation first and foremost.

If you have not communicated with one of us directly we ask that you now send us a short e-mail so we can capture your address for future communication.

Do not allow distractions while performing your duties. Keeping focused on your priorities while at work are the mark of the true professionals that you all are.

We are proud to represent the Pilots from US Airways’ Council 41. Thank you again for bestowing upon us this great privilege and honor.

We only hope we have upheld these responsibilities to your satisfaction.

Fraternally,

 

[767jetz]

Does this mean I'll get MY seniority when any of us merge or just what YOU think we should get, as "united" pilots?

A merger between US and UA will never happen. This is no longer a situation where one airline is in it's second bankruptcy, facing Ch 7, with no exit plan, and needs a merger in order to be brought back from the dead. The last thing UA needs is more domestic exposure to compete with Southwest and Jet Blue.

But to answer your hypothetical question, you would get whatever your seniority can currently buy you. If you are a senior 320 captain you'll get a number that gets you a senior 320 position in a combined airline. If you are the bottom reserve 737 f/o just back from furlough, that's where you will be. If there is another economic down turn, you'd be back on furlough, as is the case with now. DOH is simply a non starter. And as you said yourself, in this round of consolidation if there is no consensual prenuptial agreement on seniority, there is simply no deal. As we can see from your stance of "your way or the highway" there would be no consensual deal and therefore no merger. (Thankfully.)

 

[EastUS]

A merger between US and UA will never happen.

It must be true if you say so, but: Aww nuts!!...I, for one am heartbroken that I'll never be able to fly with you...sigh.

"But to answer your hypothetical question, you would get whatever your seniority can currently buy you." Cute..the only "problem" lies within your perverse fantasies as to what "Seniority" actually is/means/should rationally be based on...outside of "I just recently showed up....BUT: I want mine!!, and I've no concern for the work years or sacrifices of anybody else...It's ALL about ME!!" notions Self interested, or otherwise confused people can spend entire lifetimes wallowing about in "Relative" muck....some prefer to actually think along more principled lines...regardless of "What's in it for ME!!??"

It would seem that your "fellow pilots" at Northwest, just for starters, must notably not be within you imaginary "majority of pilots" that so readilly agree with everything you ever say....Yup..Alpo "processes" are sure fire solutions to everything..ROTFLMAO It might seem that some things aren't truly as conveniently "relative" as you might wish to imagine.

That Einstein produced the Theory of Relativity doesn't pre-suppose that he'd find his intellectual peers within the hallowed halls of Herndon.

Dismissed.

 

[EastUS]

"You elected us only – only you should remove us. "

Harrumph!...Arrogant suggestions of actual membership voting from accused Heretics!?....Blasphemy!!...These Heretics must BURN!! Apostates are everywhere! The proper course for Pontiff Prater is now tragically clear. ALL LEC's/MEC's everywhere should be disbanded immediately, and all policy and negotiations done soley by enlightened High Priests at Herndon...for the Common Good.

Since it's taken the proper usage of Loyalty Oaths and many noble efforts by the panel of Inquisitors just to smoke out these few Heretics so far..... It should properly now be mandatory for any new pilots, piously accepting Alpo in their hearts when starting their careers, to swear fealty and their fullest allegiances directly to Herndon from this time forward, before being issued any membership card.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The bottom line is, there is no union without date-of-hire being some part of the "seniority" formula. Period. Doesn't matter is you're talking about ALPA, AFA, IAM or whatever. Whine all you want, but seniority based on years of service is a foundation of unionism. ALPA, in their zeal to appease younger pilots at UAL have attempted to destroy this foundation. I believe that they are about to get their hat handed to them in about three weeks. Then maybe they can get back to their usual business of protecting their "gravy train" at the other airlines they still represent, for the time being, that is.

 

[end_of_alpa]

A merger between US and UA will never happen. This is no longer a situation where one airline is in it's second bankruptcy, facing Ch 7, with no exit plan, and needs a merger in order to be brought back from the dead. The last thing UA needs is more domestic exposure to compete with Southwest and Jet Blue.

But to answer your hypothetical question, you would get whatever your seniority can currently buy you. If you are a senior 320 captain you'll get a number that gets you a senior 320 position in a combined airline. If you are the bottom reserve 737 f/o just back from furlough, that's where you will be. If there is another economic down turn, you'd be back on furlough, as is the case with now. DOH is simply a non starter. And as you said yourself, in this round of consolidation if there is no consensual prenuptial agreement on seniority, there is simply no deal. As we can see from your stance of "your way or the highway" there would be no consensual deal and therefore no merger. (Thankfully.)

You must be dense. Reread my post. I was NOT referring to a "merger" with United. I was referring to the "alluding" reference by ALPA that we are ALL UNITED as US Airways pilots. Go back over to United ALPA where you belong. You can't read.

We won't be on furlough again. We will do what we need to survive if it means NOT TO GROVEL AT THE TABLE OF UNITED PILOTS so that you will grace us with the "scraps" from your tables, that's the lesson from YOU, from ALPA National and from history.

Good luck with WHOMEVER you merge with...you're going to need it!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Harrumph!...Arrogant suggestions of actual membership voting!?....Blasphemy!!...These Heretics must BURN!!

Does that mean Herndon=Salem?

Not enough "Harrumphing" going on yet I bet. See my PM?

/S/ 1/2 of the clown conspiracy

 

[767jetz]

You must be dense. Reread my post. I was NOT referring to a "merger" with United. I was referring to the "alluding" reference by ALPA that we are ALL UNITED as US Airways pilots.

Sorry. My bad then.

 

[767jetz]

We won't be on furlough again. We will do what we need to survive...

This part is very telling. In other words, you feel that you have suffered enough at the hands of past management, therefore you feel entitled to take whatever you can from whomever you can to avoid being furloughed. Especially those you have arbitrarily and singlehandedly labeled as less deserving.

Got it.