US IAM Fleet Service topic

[ChockJockey]

The problem is that it's not an issue of "let's work together to succeed," but rather, "let's work together so there can be less of you."

I don't see a couple of bags taken from the slide to a belt loader taking food out of the mouths of anybody's kids. On the handful of times I have seen managers doing ramp work (it's funny to see them try) it's because they were trying to "help" get a flight out on time and not because they want to foster a sentiment of brotherhood or eliminate the jobs of a dozen rampers by asking the cap'n if ground power can be removed. It seems as though they'd rather risk some mild ire from the union than the wrath of their handlers for taking a delay on a critical flight.

That said, I will confront any manager attempting to do ramp work. I will shake his hand, welcome him to the IAM, ask him for his $19.00 in dues, and politely inform him he is out of uniform, if only because doing that really sounds like fun. I've never seen any of the "help" managers have tried to render being substantial or critical in any way, and these people aren't dressed (or paid) to break a sweat. A good number of them never even went through initial ramp training.

In fact, I'd argue that a neck-breathing manager hovering around a gate on a hot and heavy turn does more to hold things up than move them along, even if he does pick up a few bags. This is especially true if the manager is not respected or trusted or is perceived to be generally incompetent. It's just like some of these clowns to pat you on the back for getting a flight out just in time and then pass out ESON's all around. When it's down to the wire we need to be allowed to focus on doing our jobs correctly without the distraction of the holy trinity of the collar, the khakis, and the clipboard.

I guess what I'm saying is for me I'm not so much ticked by the scope aspect of it as I am that they're doing my job implies that they don't have faith in my abilities, capabilities, strength, or resolve. It's disrespectful. Some other crews might need a management diaper-changer on-site but don't do my work on my gate, especially when it's my name that goes on the final product...

 

[28L_or_10R?]

That said, I will confront any manager attempting to do ramp work. I will shake his hand, welcome him to the IAM, ask him for his $19.00 in dues, and politely inform him he is out of uniform, if only because doing that really sounds like fun. I've never seen any of the "help" managers have tried to render being substantial or critical in any way, and these people aren't dressed (or paid) to break a sweat. A good number of them never even went through initial ramp training.

I wonder how one of the "helping" managers would like it if they returned to their office to find a fleet guy sitting at his desk. "Aren't you glad I'm helping? You sure had a lot of stuff in your filing cabinet that didn't look important. It's all in the dumpster. Your desk was a mess. How do you accomplish anything? Where's all the stuff that was on your desk? That's in the dumpster, as well."

 

[necigrad]

Here's reality... By the time a Supervisor is notified of a problem

They are supposed to be SUPERVISING. I understand that one manager cannot be in every place at once. However, first off were they adaquetly managing the operation it would be a rare situation that last minute help is needed. If they would plan for quick turns and ensure there was enough functioning equipment you'd almost never have this situation to begin with. Second, as a problem develops the Lead should be seeing this, allowing him or her to provide ADAQUATE notification to Management.

announces it to the break room, gets no response from anyone in the break room, cajoles and threatens rampers in the break room

We'll leave the "cajoles and threatens' managerial theory alone, as we all know about that. A Manager should ask for volunteers (IMO) when possible, but NOT at the expense of the operation. When time is critical it should be "Rampers Doe, Smith, and Johnson, report to A8 IMMEDIATELY to assist with a quick turn".

orders a dozen to the gate (with 3 of them actually making it to the gate)

That's insubordination born out of lax supervision. Because of the ongoing past lax practice, a one time totally free warning should be issued, along the lines of "I understand that we have not said anything about this in the past, but understand that this is the last time this will go unaddressed. Any future occurrences shall follow the progressive counseling process".

and the rampers strolling casually to the gate, the flight will be late or the passenger awaiting a gate check will be angry for the delay.

Kinda goes back to the beginning, but problems shouldn't fall this far behind. OTOH, the rampers should have a modicum of a sense of urgency.

More reality... Management won't hire more people to cover those situations, but instead Management will order rampers to be in zones, not break rooms or upstairs

You're probably right on both points. The first isn't our problem. If we stick together and hold Management to the CBA, eventually the operation will get even worse and this will be corrected, or the airline will crumble. As to the second problem, if you're on the clock, you're being paid to work. While we do have a very easy going "assigned work area" if people aren't going to be where they should, or not respond when called, they will ruin it for all. That's not Managements fault, it's our fault.

with broom and dust pans, because as they told me in the military, "If you can lean, then you can clean."

I'm opposed to this. In my not so humble opinion this is not a fleet job. I cannot attest to other cities, but here in LAS we have contract cleaners for the faciilities. Because of that itis outside of the "normal and customary" scope.

So there won't be another "coworker who is laidoff on the street" coming back.

Again, you're probably right. And again, that's Managements fault. They are responsible for providing the tools (including people, and yes I'm aware that some rampers are in fact "tools") to do the job. Not having the staffing to cover the operations is Managements failure, not ours.

Personally, I do not view Management typically as some monolith of hatred, contempt or wrath (with few noteworthy exceptions), although I do see ineptness and slothfulness. I most assure you that if Management wanted to hold fleet service to the exact letter of the CBA pink slips would be flying fast and furious. So yes, Management does look the other way many times on petty infractions (yes, that means the bin nappers, the weekend Mary Jane smokers, long lunch breaks and alike). But hey, let's flood the system with a bunch of petty grievances create a hostile environment of badwill and vindictiveness while the flying public spends their traveling dollars elsewhere, but SHAPOOPI we sure showed Management!

When Management shows me that they are deserving of an appearance other then "some monolith of hatred, contempt or wrath" I'll happily look at them some other way. This whole discussion is proof that the title is stereotypically justified at this time.

If employees are violating the terms of their employment (CBA, Employee Handboof, Federal or local laws) discipline is justified. YOU are accountable for your actions. If you choose to sleep in the bin, YOU are responsible for your termination. If you smoke dope on your weekend, you're in violation of Federal law, the Employee handbook, common sense, and you're an #### to boot that I don't want even near me. I'll happily watch a stoner get kicked to the street. Taking a long lunch break is fine (they're not even scheduled here in LAS), but you still have the responsibility to ensure you are where you are needed when you are needed. Take a 6 hour break, I don't care. Miss your flight at hour three because the Supervisor couldn't find you, well you're an idiot.

When Management gets "flooded with grievances" it's their fault, not ours. A grievance means THEY made an error, and THEY are being held accountable. THEIR fault, not anyone elses.

 

[freedom]

I’m disappointed in many of you …. The tone of your conversation strikes me as implying that our staffing is adequate and that there is more productivity to be squeezed out of our work force …

I do not feel this is so … we are all working just as hard as can be to keep this company running , from the rampers to the ramp supervisors .. Many of our brothers and sisters have already fallen to the AX from LAS to TUS … The last thing I want to see here is anybody giving the scissor people at CHQ the impression that there are more heads out there that they can cut and be able to maintain our current level of operation ..

 

[necigrad]

Actually everyone is saying just the opposite. Either we are too short staffed or there's substantial production because individuals on the clock aren't working, which in my experience are both correct depending on the station, work location, and time of day.

And this is a first. Freedom, this if the first time I've actually heard you say something that is at least slightly in line with a Union represented work group.

The last thing I want to see here is anybody giving the scissor people at CHQ the impression that there are more heads out there that they can cut and be able to maintain our current level of operation

 

[ChockJockey]

Actually everyone is saying just the opposite. Either we are too short staffed or there's substantial production because individuals on the clock aren't working, which in my experience are both correct depending on the station, work location, and time of day.

The cuts in LAS, TUS, and PIT corresponded to operational reductions, not an attempt to maximize productivity from the remaining work force, and it doesn't follow to say these people are all out of work because we've had a decent number from TUS and a few from LAS come down here to PHX.

I really truly don't think that management (at least at my station) gives that much of a rat's unmentionables about where a gate crew or runner is or what they're doing as long as 1.) they can be paged or easily located and more importantly 2.) are where they need to be to do their job when the work does arrive. Three hours of down-time for a crew of four working eight-hour shifts? So what? When the company shells out $475 or whatever in wages to this crew they're paying primarily to have a staffed and active gate; how many flights come in and out of it and the amount of sweat work this means for the crews is secondary; in fact, the work load per crew in PHX and where that crew may go to cover/help/relieve is dictated not by management but by a unit lead.

The company could come up with a few theoretical models that would have us boots on the ramp for eight solid hours, but when you cut your workforce down to be that optimized you lose almost all flexibility. Gate returns, diversions, quick-turns, emergencies, weather, the unforeseen; all of these behoove the company to over-staff and then use VTO to fine-tune its staffing for each shift, which is what happens. Yes, there are a decent number of people sitting around watching the game on TV but if they're needed they're available. The company can't afford to save money by reducing ramp staffing too much because then they pay the price in stressing their metrics in terms of on-time, MBR, and complaints.

There was a time last week when the AM duty manager VTO'd too many of the early start on the PM shift, causing a number of gates to go un- or under-staffed for a mere 45 minutes, which isn't that bad until you consider that was the 45 minutes that that complex was landing. Whoops...

 

[roabilly]

Bring me all extra help I can get... manager, supervisor, pilot... if they are willing to lend a small hand in order to bring better customer service and get the plane out on time, I will say, "thanks," not "here's my grievance." If any of those people wanted to be in the bins, I am sure they would have been qualified to have the job. People who are critical about management's crappy attitudes, while willing to submit a grievance for someone being considerate and helpful should find a mirror and see the real problem.

So Reflects Jester.

Scope Language is not in the vocabulary of certain posters. When you refract your perception of reality through a fun house mirror.... all is well in Limbaugh Utopia!

So mirrors...

Roabilly

P.S. Yer Q's gettin' freezer burn!

 

[Jester]

Scope Language is not in the vocabulary of certain posters. When you refract your perception of reality through a fun house mirror.... all is well in Limbaugh Utopia!

So mirrors...

Roabilly

P.S. Yer Q's gettin' freezer burn!

And if I was a paying passenger, I wouldn't give two salt licks about your beloved "Scope Language"... I want both my special handling bags and I want my flights to go without delays and I really don't care who's making it happen. Honestly, if I didn't work for this airline, I wouldn't fly this airline and in large part because of the systemic attitudes like your own which permeates this organization and why the public has a general dislike and distrust of unions. If I was a paying passenger and heard the excuse of "Not my job" or "I can't touch your bags because of the union contract," my next phone call would be to 1-800-523-FARE (Continental's Reservations Center).

Mr. Roabilly, I think somehow you believe in the grand cosmos of life, the Three Fates have allocated some part of the general public into only flying US Airways and these travelers will stay regardless of our lousy attitudes, slothful mannerisms, and poor product. However, as sure the Blue Meatball carrying the Pan Am symbol is no more, so may we also go and you will have cold comfort under the thin cover of what would be your defunct and superfluous CBA.

On a lighter note: What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenberg?
One is a flaming Nazi gas bag and the other is just a dirigible.

So Pans Jester.

 

[Dog Wonder]

The notion Managers risk the ire of the rank and file in the interest of customer service is a fantasy.

They choose between pissing off the people who do the work and pissing off their bosses.

 

[700UW]

Gee how does one have a bad attitude when they expect the company to adhere to a federal, legal and binding contract that they agreed to?

If you think having a CBA is so bad, go work for an airline where you are an employee at will with no contract and let the company do whatever they want.

 

[Jester]

Gee how does one have a bad attitude when they expect the company to adhere to a federal, legal and binding contract that they agreed to?

If you think having a CBA is so bad, go work for an airline where you are an employee at will with no contract and let the company do whatever they want.

700,

How's your US Airways CBA workin' fur ya? Was it the bakery and bread business now?

Regardless, just because one has a CBA, does not mean it is mandatory to have pissy attitudes. And once again, if I am a paying passenger, I don't give a damn about yours or anyone elses baggage turf... just deliver my damn bags in a timely fashion or I'll find an airline without the attitudes or the inter trade turf wars.

So Orders Jester.

 

[700UW]

I left US on my own accord after the second bankruptcy, but the new CBA for the M&R is working just fine, pay raises, vacation and holiday gains and better scope language.

You still dont get it, the CBA is a legal document that both sides must adhere too, the job you are willing to give away might be your own someday.

And make that tobacco, you forgot that part and that is paying for my four year college degree, thank you very much.

 

[ChockJockey]

And if I was a paying passenger, I wouldn't give two salt licks about your beloved "Scope Language"... I want both my special handling bags and I want my flights to go without delays and I really don't care who's making it happen.

The opposing contention here being that the customer is better served when a manager is competently and correctly performing his (or her) job duties instead of having to get his (or her) hands dirty doing work he (or she) is neither expected nor contractually permitted to do.

I must say that on the handful occasions in which I did see management doing ramp work their contributions were unnecessary, negligible, and could have just as easily been done by an agent without any perceptible difference in the quality of service the customer experienced. But it is kind of cute that they thought they were helping.

Mr. Roabilly, I think somehow you believe in the grand cosmos of life, the Three Fates have allocated some part of the general public into only flying US Airways and these travelers will stay regardless of our lousy attitudes, slothful mannerisms, and poor product.

It may be worth mentioning here that in the latest DOT numbers US beat out CO in both on-time and missed bags. CO trounced US in complaints, but of these most are not attributable to the ramp anyways.

On a lighter note: What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenberg?
One is a flaming Nazi gas bag and the other is just a dirigible.

What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenberg?
Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict.

 

[Old Guy]

Jester,
Just as punching in 30 sec late or 30 sec early. Will that same manager look the other way ? I think not. So live by your contract. It all washes out in the end.

O.G. :blink:

 

[Jester]

Jester,
Just as punching in 30 sec late or 30 sec early. Will that same manager look the other way ? I think not. So live by your contract. It all washes out in the end.

O.G. :blink:

That use to be the case... recall the 6-Minute Rule? Then it was the 2-Minute Rule... Now it's the "Get-Here-Before-the-Workbrain-Clock-Shows-Your-Actual-Starting-Time" Rule. The assumption being if the clock says 06:00 and your start time is 06:00, then the "real time" is 06:00:30 meaning one is now 30 seconds late, even if the clock does not project in seconds. If one sees 6:00, then your late as it is highly unlikely in that split second one badged in fast enough an entered their PIN on exactly 06:00:00. I have heard mixed enforcment on this rule.

Back to the topic at hand. I do not think it is coincidental that Management has become more petty (see the aforementioned time clock) as the grievances have increased markedly. Sure, go ahead and exercise yours "rights" within the CBA, but Management is not a machine and like humans, they will react accordingly. Just as much as you may to exercise your First Amendment rights to a cop on routine traffic stop by dropping in a few f-bombs directed at their profession, but hey, it's within your "rights," no?

The situation has caused an environment of mutual distrust and antagonism by which has not created either a pleasant or friendly workplace. Unfortunately, we do not exist in a vacuum of Employees vs. Management, because the ultimate decider to our employment fates lie with the Traveler and their willingness to use our services. Petty, vindictive turf wars over minor issues within a hostile work environment will undoubtedly surface with passengers who will decide with their dollars as to whether we should survive as a business. My point being... think before you decide to file another petty grievance because someone was trying to provide better customer service.

And finally, O.G., it doesn't "all wash out in the end". I am reminded of an old attorney friend who said to me tongue in cheek, "When I was a young, inexperienced attorney, I probably lost some cases I should have won. When I became an mature, experienced attorney, I won some cases I should have lost. In the long-run justice was done." Just as much as you think some days Management will be unjustly screwed or other days the Employees would be unjustly screwed and "it all washes out in the end," but either way, the Passengers will ultimately suffer.

So Counsels Jester.