ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[oldiebutgoody]

Interesting enough, USAPA inherits all contracts of the prior union. It does not get to pick and choose.

There will be no cram-down of DOH. Again, it's reprehensible that a group of pissed FOs (essentially) would promise this. This tactic (DOH or bust) did not work in arbitration. It did not work in negotiation prior, and it won't work now.

I guess we'll know soon enough. I wonder which airline will be next to leave?

 

[YVINTERN]

I guess we'll know soon enough. I wonder which airline will be next to leave?

Leaving ALPA? I can see Delta joining USAPA so they can just get swallowed up easier...

 

[nycbusdriver]

Interesting enough, USAPA inherits all contracts of the prior union. It does not get to pick and choose.

There will be no cram-down of DOH. Again, it's reprehensible that a group of pissed FOs (essentially) would promise this. This tactic (DOH or bust) did not work in arbitration. It did not work in negotiation prior, and it won't work now.

Okay. If you say so. Let's vote.

Leaving ALPA? I can see Delta joining USAPA so they can just get swallowed up easier...

I doubt any other carrier would be permitted to join USAPA. USAPA was formed partly as a reaction to a union that has divided loyalties as an intrinsic part of what it is. I don't think going down that failed ALPA road will be considered.

Of course, I know your post was sarcasm. But it gave yet another opportunity to highlight a flaw in how ALPA does business.

 

[Cactus Head]

So if a new contract gets ratified by the possible new majority, what protections are there for the West, especially if every West member refuses to pay dues. Along those lines, what are the legal obligations for a West pilot to even consider paying dues?

I asked this question yesterday and don't see a reply to it. Anyone have anything to say about what will happen to any West pilot job protections, let alone the entire new USAPA "union" if not one West aviator pays a dime of dues? I'm curious as to how that would shake out.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I figured someone would have answered the dues question by now.....

You are not legally bound to join the union or pay dues. However, as a dues objector you must pay a "contract maintenance fee" even if a non-member and that is normally only slightly less than normal dues would be. By electing to be a dues objector, you naturally can not vote on union issues - rep elections, contracts, etc - but because you pay the "fee" the union is still obligated to protect your rights contained in the contract just as they would a union member.

The union has the legal right to incorporate contract language requiring your employer to terminate you for non-payment of either dues for members or the fee for non-members - I'd about guarantee that the current West contract has such language.

Jim

 

[ableoneable]

I don't know why but this does not surprise me in the least.

http://wb3.alpaboards.org/wb/file.asp?file=Folks%2C%2Epdf


Council 90 UPDATE #2
!
!
3/16/2008!
THUGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
Fellow Pilots,!
(Day seven of our bus tour of all our crew bases and day three in PHL.)!
During this bus tour our Communications chairman has been physically assaulted, a
picture of a KKK rally was sent by an USAPA member to an LEC member who is
African American and one of your fellow pilots complained of threats made by
USAPA supporters against him for not wearing a yellow USAPA lanyard. (He was told
they would visit him in the parking lot if he didn’t start wearing a yellow lanyard.)
Numerous pilots wearing yellow lanyards have hurled obscenities at us and we were
told we were not welcome in the crew rooms, as if USAPA owns them. (USAPA
functionaries have had unfettered access to our crew rooms.) We were standing in line at
a coffee shop in the terminal and a USAPA recruiter started lambasting us with four
letter words and crude language in front of female and young customers. An older
couple got their coffee and fled the scene before putting cream and sugar in their drinks
to get away from the commotion.!


These offenses were carried out by supporters of USAPA wearing yellow lanyards.
What a proud bunch they must be. Insults and criminal behavior are a poor substitute for
the honest and open exchange of ideas encouraged and practiced by ALPA. !
We can only assume from this thuggish behavior, that USAPA will not be a union
tolerant of dissent. Their entire representational structure will be appointed and it could
be eighteen months before an election is held.!
What will their local council meetings will be like? What if you express a contrary
opinion as many of you do at ALPA meetings? Will thugs meet you in the parking lot?
Will you be told you are not welcome? How will you be treated if you choose to run for
office against one of their appointed local council reps?!
I imagine their first MEC meeting as a Soviet Politburo meeting where the applause goes
on for hours since everyone is afraid to be the first one to stop clapping after the
Chairman’s rousing victory speech.!
We respect your right to disagree and dissent as you have for your entire career as
members of the Airline Pilots Association. We remind you that it is no one’s business
which union you vote for. We ask that you study the facts, examine the resources each
side has available and make up your mind with clear and unemotional reasoning. We
believe that ALPA offers the best path forward for you and your family and we will
be voting for ALPA.!
!
Fraternally,!
Marshall Rogers Lance Svendsen Lyle Newman
Marshall.rogers@alpa.org lancealpa@comcast.net lylenewman@yahoo.com!

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Interesting enough, USAPA inherits all contracts of the prior union. It does not get to pick and choose.

There will be no cram-down of DOH. Again, it's reprehensible that a group of pissed FOs (essentially) would promise this. This tactic (DOH or bust) did not work in arbitration. It did not work in negotiation prior, and it won't work now.

The question was about the TA. But since you have now included the contracts, tell me what does our individual contracts say about Nicolau? Well, we differ on the outcomes after the election. But that is not new.

I think it would help further your understanding that it takes more than just the F/O's to get 3200 cards. There is more at work here than just Nicolau. Plus, if you go back through the archived closed threads, there have been many posts over the last 6 months that have tried to explain it to you.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Council 90 UPDATE #2

3/16/2008!
THUGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!

Fraternally,!
Marshall Rogers Lance Svendsen Lyle Newman
Marshall.rogers@alpa.org lancealpa@comcast.net lylenewman@yahoo.com!

Just the authors, call into question the credibility of the publication. Lots of crew room talk today and what was described is completely overblown. No surprise there. It might have helped to leave out the additional rhetoric.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't know why but this does not surprise me in the least.

http://wb3.alpaboards.org/wb/file.asp?file=Folks%2C%2Epdf


Council 90 UPDATE #2
!
!
3/16/2008!
THUGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
....
!
Fraternally,!
Marshall Rogers Lance Svendsen Lyle Newman
Marshall.rogers@alpa.org lancealpa@comcast.net lylenewman@yahoo.com!

Frankly it is not surprising that ALPA can't express its desire and ability to represent pilots. Heck why start now.

That Lance would resort to spreading what amounts to staged baby-seal-beating-videos is merely just one more example of ALPA honing their forte'?

That Lance would be appointed to lead this charge of the light brigade is somewhat a lamentable poetic justice. :mellow:

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I figured someone would have answered the dues question by now.....

You are not legally bound to join the union or pay dues. However, as a dues objector you must pay a "contract maintenance fee" even if a non-member and that is normally only slightly less than normal dues would be. By electing to be a dues objector, you naturally can not vote on union issues - rep elections, contracts, etc - but because you pay the "fee" the union is still obligated to protect your rights contained in the contract just as they would a union member.

The union has the legal right to incorporate contract language requiring your employer to terminate you for non-payment of either dues for members or the fee for non-members - I'd about guarantee that the current West contract has such language.

Jim

I believe that I read in a letter that the "administration fee" for nonmembers will be the same as the dues for members for USAPA. By the way, this arrangement is called a "closed shop", and is the way most union shops are run. This is not unique to airlines. Other than to show objection, there is no benefit to not joining USAPA if they win the election.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I don't know why but this does not surprise me in the least.

http://wb3.alpaboards.org/wb/file.asp?file=Folks%2C%2Epdf


Council 90 UPDATE #2
!
!
3/16/2008!
THUGS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
Fellow Pilots,!
(Day seven of our bus tour of all our crew bases and day three in PHL.)!
During this bus tour our Communications chairman has been physically assaulted, a
picture of a KKK rally was sent by an USAPA member to an LEC member who is
African American and one of your fellow pilots complained of threats made by
USAPA supporters against him for not wearing a yellow USAPA lanyard. (He was told
they would visit him in the parking lot if he didn’t start wearing a yellow lanyard.)
Numerous pilots wearing yellow lanyards have hurled obscenities at us and we were
told we were not welcome in the crew rooms, as if USAPA owns them. (USAPA
functionaries have had unfettered access to our crew rooms.) We were standing in line at
a coffee shop in the terminal and a USAPA recruiter started lambasting us with four
letter words and crude language in front of female and young customers. An older
couple got their coffee and fled the scene before putting cream and sugar in their drinks
to get away from the commotion.!


These offenses were carried out by supporters of USAPA wearing yellow lanyards.
What a proud bunch they must be. Insults and criminal behavior are a poor substitute for
the honest and open exchange of ideas encouraged and practiced by ALPA. !
We can only assume from this thuggish behavior, that USAPA will not be a union
tolerant of dissent. Their entire representational structure will be appointed and it could
be eighteen months before an election is held.!
What will their local council meetings will be like? What if you express a contrary
opinion as many of you do at ALPA meetings? Will thugs meet you in the parking lot?
Will you be told you are not welcome? How will you be treated if you choose to run for
office against one of their appointed local council reps?!
I imagine their first MEC meeting as a Soviet Politburo meeting where the applause goes
on for hours since everyone is afraid to be the first one to stop clapping after the
Chairman’s rousing victory speech.!
We respect your right to disagree and dissent as you have for your entire career as
members of the Airline Pilots Association. We remind you that it is no one’s business
which union you vote for. We ask that you study the facts, examine the resources each
side has available and make up your mind with clear and unemotional reasoning. We
believe that ALPA offers the best path forward for you and your family and we will
be voting for ALPA.!
!
Fraternally,!
Marshall Rogers Lance Svendsen Lyle Newman
Marshall.rogers@alpa.org lancealpa@comcast.net lylenewman@yahoo.com!

Was security called? What was the response? If these things did happen, then why wasn't the perpetrators arrested?
ALPA is NOT allowed in the crew rooms, per the PUBLISHED company policy, not USAPA.
Sorry if I don't believe the magnitude of these issues, or even if they happened at all.
If they did happen (again, which I doubt) what part did the ALPA reps play in them?

Why would the USAPA guys, who, by all accounts have much greater support in CLT than the ALPA guys, initiate ANY of this?

Sounds fishy to me!

Oh, and Lance, you'd better be looking into a new email address!

 

[exB717Flyer]

I believe that I read in a letter that the "administration fee" for nonmembers will be the same as the dues for members for USAPA.

Actually, it's called an "Agency Fee" and it's determined by a yearly audit to account for only the monies used to administer and defend the CBA. It's typically around 85% of full dues. There are hundreds of exTWA pilots at AA in this situation.

By the way, this arrangement is called a "closed shop", and is the way most union shops are run.

No airlines are a closed shop because union membership isn't mandatory per the RLA. All airline pilots are Agency Shop, meaning you don't have to join but you do have to pay the Agency Fee and the union is required to defend you regardless of membership.

 

[NYGiantsFan90]

They are a closed shop, that is why they have to pay what is germaine to the CBA.

If it was an open shop, they would not have to pay anything.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Actually, it's called an "Agency Fee" and it's determined by a yearly audit to account for only the monies used to administer and defend the CBA. It's typically around 85% of full dues. There are hundreds of exTWA pilots at AA in this situation.No airlines are a closed shop because union membership isn't mandatory per the RLA. All airline pilots are Agency Shop, meaning you don't have to join but you do have to pay the Agency Fee and the union is required to defend you regardless of membership.

Thanks. I stand corrected. But I did read somewhere (I'll see if I can dig it up) that USAPA was setting the fees to the same amount for now. The real issue here is that there is NO benefit to not paying the dues. USAPA is attempting to represent ALL US Airways pilots, and not participating means you don't get to complain about what you end up with!

 

[sharktooth]

......and not participating means you don't get to complain about what you end up with!

Or especially use the special form of complaint, a vote!