ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[ClueByFour]

So far I have asked somewhat the same question. At the last ALPA road show in CLT, one of the attorneys said something to the affect "The TA will disappear". In addition the NMB ruled we are one pilot group, therefore, IMO, I believe you are correct. The requirement for separate ratification disappears.

The problem with that logic is that all it takes in one Westie and a lawsuit, and you then get Nicolau implementation. That's one of USAPA's problems: the TA protects the East from Nicolau. The west guys who see USAPA as a win have very correctly pointed out that if the TA goes away, Nicolau comes along.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

That's not actually goling to happen (and stick). It's a shame they imply it will. Changing unions and forcing years of animosity because one wants to take a mulligan is hardly the sign of either integrity or any kind of leadership acumen.

Standing around and letting ALPA trash our seniority so that they can basically "staple" us in another merger would be absolutely insane. There's no issue of integrity here. ALPA's motives are clear. I think the USAPA guys have shown great leadership and organizational skill. Whether or not they win this vote, they have been much more successful in "rallying the troops" than I've seen in my career. I suspect that they will prevail, really only the second time a group has been able to leave the "evil clutches" of ALPA in it's history. I also predict that this will only be the beginning of a snowball for ALPA, and that unless they come up with some kind of real merger policy that doesn't require arbitrators (if I were them , I wouldn't even make it an option. Especially since no pilot group will EVER submit to it after Nic). ALPA should establish a FAIR national seniority list, and it should be for ALL pilots, whether employed by an ALPA carrier or not.

I read Jack Stephan's letter last night. He seems to have the opinion that the company is the enemy. I've got news for you, Jack. I don't consider them the enemy. Right now, my own union is the enemy. There is NO WAY IN HELL that the company would have come up with such a career devastating arrangement as Nicolau, even if there was NO INPUT FROM EITHER PILOT GROUP. After watching the AAA MEC self destruct, I know that they are incapable of running an effective union, let alone correcting this travesty called Nic.

As for whether the TA goes away or not, I would expect that the company will either honor the old TA or negotiate a new one ASAP. They're not stupid, despite what many say here.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That's not actually goling to happen (and stick). It's a shame they imply it will. Changing unions and forcing years of animosity because one wants to take a mulligan is hardly the sign of either integrity or any kind of leadership acumen.

There's going to be years of animosity either way. From that standpoint, we are in a no win situation, but we each have to make a decision. Unless we have a true "Deus ex machina" event, this may very well be a supremely miserable place to work for quite some time to come. It's hard to believe it could get worse, and I am not so naive that I think USAPA will solve all our problems, but staying with ALPA and doing the same thing over and over yet expecting a different result really is insanity.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...I read Jack Stephan's letter last night. He seems to have the opinion that the company is the enemy....

...As for whether the TA goes away or not, I would expect that the company will either honor the old TA or negotiate a new one ASAP. They're not stupid, despite what many say here.

Stephan is using a successful tactic which the world saw in the last century brought to its ultimate evil conclusion. Although different by degree, Stephan is using exactly the same type of rhetoric that Adolf Hitler used to come to power. Define the problem and then find somewhere else to place blame and repeat it enough to enough people for enough time and it will stick, even though the blame is entirely misdirected and unfair.

I am far from a Doug Parker fan, but I think he has been entirely blameless in the union debacle. In fact, since the s*** hit the fan last May, he has been meticulous in attempting to stay out of the fray. He wants a unified pilot group because that is what is in the best interests of the company, and he does not care which union gets the group unified. He wants to move on; he needs to move on.

Although he would never disclose such a thing, it would be interesting to see how, as CEO, he would have integrated the two groups. With the health of the corporation at stake, I am certain he would have come up with a better plan than Nicolau. I suspect it would be more along the lines of DOH with high, enduring fences and restrictions (where else have we heard this?) Why do I say this? Look at how other decisions have been made, for instance the non-rev boarding policy. He even called the Nicolau award a "lottery ticket" for the west pilots. CEO's don't routinely do "lottery ticket" gambles with the future of the corporation.

If ALPA goes away on April 17, I think Parker will be anxious to sit down with USAPA and the legal teams from both sides to resolve the discrepancies in the TA which will result from the two MECs being dissolved. It will be interesting to hear what the company has to say to the pilots on April 17 if USAPA wins.

 

[sharktooth]

Stephan is using a successful tactic which the world saw in the last century brought to its ultimate evil conclusion. Although different by degree, Stephan is using exactly the same type of rhetoric that Adolf Hitler used to come to power. Define the problem and then find somewhere else to place blame and repeat it enough to enough people for enough time and it will stick, even though the blame is entirely misdirected and unfair.

GWBush used that to good effect to rally the country to invade Iraq, saying that Saddam was involved in 9/11, etc. and so on. I say we should have invaded Mexico, they have oil too.

I am far from a Doug Parker fan, but I think he has been entirely blameless in the union debacle. In fact, since the s*** hit the fan last May, he has been meticulous in attempting to stay out of the fray. He wants a unified pilot group because that is what is in the best interests of the company, and he does not care which union gets the group unified. He wants to move on; he needs to move on.

Although he would never disclose such a thing, it would be interesting to see how, as CEO, he would have integrated the two groups. With the health of the corporation at stake, I am certain he would have come up with a better plan than Nicolau. I suspect it would be more along the lines of DOH with high, enduring fences and restrictions (where else have we heard this?) Why do I say this? Look at how other decisions have been made, for instance the non-rev boarding policy. He even called the Nicolau award a "lottery ticket" for the west pilots. CEO's don't routinely do "lottery ticket" gambles with the future of the corporation.

Though welcome by me, making statements about the health of each company pre-merger announcement after the "nic" was announced and declaring the "nic" a "lottery ticket", IMO, does not constitute "staying out of the fray". I'd like to think he is smarter than the average dude, in which case, perhaps, he is trying to "fine-tune" the end game. Maybe I give him too much credit.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

The problem with that logic is that all it takes in one Westie and a lawsuit, and you then get Nicolau implementation. That's one of USAPA's problems: the TA protects the East from Nicolau. The west guys who see USAPA as a win have very correctly pointed out that if the TA goes away, Nicolau comes along.

I just answered the question with what I heard at the ALPA roadshow. But as for the TA and Nic. What contract does the Nic seniority list live in? If you answered neither you are correct. Nic was negotiated under the TA. Therefore if the TA goes away as ALPA says it will, where does Nic go? Into both contracts? No hardly. Nic was negotiated under ALPA auspices. Not USAPA's.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Not long now. I suspect someone inside the NMB will know the results of the election by the 21st.......of March.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Not long now. I suspect someone inside the NMB will know the results of the election by the 21st.......of March.

If their servers can handle the load, they will probably know by noon on March 20.

 

[Irideover]

FYI

Fellow pilot,

It has come to our attention that ALPA is calling fellow pilots on LTD, suddenly "concerned" about them after all these years. Concern is great, although a bit suspicious at this juncture. We have already received many phone calls and/or emails from those on LTD, which would indicate that the ALPA R&I chairman has stooped so low as to lie to the most vulnerable pilots on the property.

Regardless of what you may have heard, or what was said during any calls you may have received, the fact is this: a change in unions has no effect on your LTD benefits. Period. LTD benefits are a contractual item, and as such, by law, they remain as-is during a change in unions. (this can be confirmed by a quick call to the Company, a call we encourage you to make if you are still concerned about this issue.)

Additionally, for those holding ALPA Life, AD&D or LOL insurance, you are guaranteed issue into USAPA's products. "Guaranteed" means exactly that, guaranteed. No physical, no underwriting, no exceptions. Additionally, USAPA has a full Aeromedical plan in place, also detailed on the USAPA web site. For more information on USAPA's insurance products, please click here.

To counter this misinformation campaign, we are asking every pilot receiving this to get help us this message out, to call any LTD pilot they know, send this note to them, get it out on all distribution lists to which they belong, on all web boards they visit. Please do this today.

In three days the polls open - please help us get the truth out to those that need it the most.

For any questions or concerns, about this or any other issue, please send an email to [email protected] or call 877-678-7272 x706.

Thank you for your continuing support.





(authentic USAPA communication - click here to confirm)

Scott Theuer | Communications Chairman | US Airline Pilots Association
877-678-7272 | | USAirlinePilots.org

 

[EastUS]

FYI

Fellow pilot,

It has come to our attention that ALPA is calling fellow pilots on LTD, suddenly "concerned" about them after all these years. Concern is great, although a bit suspicious at this juncture. We have already received many phone calls and/or emails from those on LTD, which would indicate that the ALPA R&I chairman has stooped so low as to lie to the most vulnerable pilots on the property.

This should certainly surprise no one. FDR's magnificent rallying speech to the nation long ago noted that "All we have to fear, is fear itself".

With Alpa: "All we have left to sell is fear itself."

 

[319hitter]

Stephan is using a successful tactic which the world saw in the last century brought to its ultimate evil conclusion. Although different by degree, Stephan is using exactly the same type of rhetoric that Adolf Hitler used to come to power. Define the problem and then find somewhere else to place blame and repeat it enough to enough people for enough time and it will stick, even though the blame is entirely misdirected and unfair.

I am far from a Doug Parker fan, but I think he has been entirely blameless in the union debacle. In fact, since the s*** hit the fan last May, he has been meticulous in attempting to stay out of the fray. He wants a unified pilot group because that is what is in the best interests of the company, and he does not care which union gets the group unified. He wants to move on; he needs to move on.

Although he would never disclose such a thing, it would be interesting to see how, as CEO, he would have integrated the two groups. With the health of the corporation at stake, I am certain he would have come up with a better plan than Nicolau. I suspect it would be more along the lines of DOH with high, enduring fences and restrictions (where else have we heard this?) Why do I say this? Look at how other decisions have been made, for instance the non-rev boarding policy. He even called the Nicolau award a "lottery ticket" for the west pilots. CEO's don't routinely do "lottery ticket" gambles with the future of the corporation.

If ALPA goes away on April 17, I think Parker will be anxious to sit down with USAPA and the legal teams from both sides to resolve the discrepancies in the TA which will result from the two MECs being dissolved. It will be interesting to hear what the company has to say to the pilots on April 17 if USAPA wins.

This comment is truly reprehensible. Jack was and is making the obvious point that ALPA did not write the Award, tell the arbitrator how it wanted him to rule, or present either side’s case. For so stating he has now been compared to the greatest mass murderer in history. If this is an example of USAPA democracy at work we all have much to fear.

We have much to fear anyway. USAPA has now made clear that, if elected, it intends to stuff its seniority system down the west’s throats, a strategy that will insure that we will be forever divided and forever weak. Parker will surely be happy about that. As for whether Parker would have adopted a different seniority system if left to his own devices, my experience with Parker is that he will tell whatever pilot he is talking to what he wants to hear and then do nothing. What he will actually do is as little as possible and charge as much as he can for whatever he does. Then when the litigation begins he will step aside and let the fur fly.

I’ll ask again, who are our “professional negotiatorsâ€￾ and what pilot contracts have they negotiated?

 

[AWA320]

The "others" haven't had the opportunity of merging with the East pilot group

Why are you even attempting to introduce logic to these people? They are nothing more that a group of irresponsible idiots that won't get it until they see the CH11 filing and even then they still won't until the announcment of the CH7 liquidation. Most of us have moved on past this site and if it weren't for a pvt message from a UAL brother I wouldn't even bother. Move on Prech as your legal talents are needed elsewhere, leave these dummies to converse among themselves...

 

[EastUS]

Why are you even attempting to introduce logic to these people? They are nothing more that a group of irresponsible idiots that won't get it until they see the CH11 filing and even then they still won't until the announcment of the CH7 liquidation. Most of us have moved on past this site and if it weren't for a pvt message from a UAL brother I wouldn't even bother. Move on Prech as your legal talents are needed elsewhere, leave these dummies to converse among themselves...

All those out east in favor of placing that, and other like-minded individuals permanently ahead of our comrades with decades more flying....? Anyone...?...Anyone at all????

Let's VOTE!!

 

[oldiebutgoody]

This comment is truly reprehensible. Jack was and is making the obvious point that ALPA did not write the Award, tell the arbitrator how it wanted him to rule, or present either side’s case.

WRONG. I speciifically asked Captain Prater this in an email. The answer I got was that HE WOULD NOT DETAIL WHAT ALPA'S INSTRUCTIONS WERE TO THE ARBITRATOR. He didn't say that they had no input, or even ignore my email, but rather, answered it as though there were instructions given but that ALPA WOULD NOT DIVULGE WHAT THEY WERE. Why not, if he isn't hiding anything?

OPEN WIDE, HERE COMES DATE-OF-HIRE!!! I guess that beats the heck out of BENDING OVER TO ACCEPT THE NIC AWARD!!!

 

[ClueByFour]

I just answered the question with what I heard at the ALPA roadshow. But as for the TA and Nic. What contract does the Nic seniority list live in? If you answered neither you are correct. Nic was negotiated under the TA. Therefore if the TA goes away as ALPA says it will, where does Nic go? Into both contracts? No hardly. Nic was negotiated under ALPA auspices. Not USAPA's.

Interesting enough, USAPA inherits all contracts of the prior union. It does not get to pick and choose.

There will be no cram-down of DOH. Again, it's reprehensible that a group of pissed FOs (essentially) would promise this. This tactic (DOH or bust) did not work in arbitration. It did not work in negotiation prior, and it won't work now.