ALPA/USAPA Thread for the Week with a Poll 3/16-22

[exB717Flyer]

They are a closed shop, that is why they have to pay what is germaine to the CBA.

You need to read more carefully. A "Closed Shop" means membership is mandatory. An "Agency Shop" means membership is optional but Agency Fee is required. An "Open Shop" means neither membership nor any fees are required. The last open shop for pilots was at AA until they instituted Agency Shop in 2003. There are no closed shops in the airline industry.

Need more proof? Google it yourself.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...that USAPA was setting the fees to the same amount for now...

That is correct. Until the dust settles, the dues percentage will remain the same 1.95% as ALPA. Even though the independent union can operate more efficiently without having to feel millions to keep a mother ship afloat, it makes sense to keep the extra coming in at the beginning to build a war chest. I suspect there will be a few examples that have to be made, and that will cost money.

 

[319hitter]

WRONG. I speciifically asked Captain Prater this in an email. The answer I got was that HE WOULD NOT DETAIL WHAT ALPA'S INSTRUCTIONS WERE TO THE ARBITRATOR. He didn't say that they had no input, or even ignore my email, but rather, answered it as though there were instructions given but that ALPA WOULD NOT DIVULGE WHAT THEY WERE. Why not, if he isn't hiding anything?

OPEN WIDE, HERE COMES DATE-OF-HIRE!!! I guess that beats the heck out of BENDING OVER TO ACCEPT THE NIC AWARD!!!

The suggestion that Prater gave some sort of illicit or secret instruction to Nicolau is absurd beyond belief and no-one who was part of the proceeding has ever said anything of the sort. The idea that you could try to spin his letter to you (which you chose not to post) into some sort of admission that he had illegally and secretly intervened in the arbitration just shows the extent to which people like you are willing to distort facts and logic. I can well imagine why Prater wouldn’t choose to send a full response to people who believe it is legitimate to compare Jack Stephan to Adolf Hitler.

As to all the chatter about dues, I would not assume that USAPA will inherit ALPA’s agency shop, at least on the west. At NWA the Company forced the PFAA to negotiate the agency shop after it raided the IBT, and did not allow the union to demand mandatory dues until it was time to negotiate concessions. By that time the NWA flight attendants were voting it out and joining the AFA, a multi-carrier AFL-CIO union. We will see if the Company is willing to threaten 1700 pilots with termination for refusing to support a union trying to stuff a new seniority system down their throats.

Let’s see. USAPA is going to get the Company to agree to a DOH seniority system without giving anything in return and force the west pilots to finance this effort. You must have one fabulous professional negotiator. When will you tell us who he is and which pilot contracts he (or she) has negotiated?

 

[EastUS]

The suggestion that Prater gave some sort of illicit or secret instruction to Nicolau is absurd beyond belief...

Really?..Ummm..Why? I don't personally know that such ocurred. You don't personally know that it didn't. The poster you're responding to noted personal correspondence that indicated some such communication "from on high", that has a questionable flavor to it in any case. Perhaps you've some better insight as to exactly what the true nature of that would have been.

"and no-one who was part of the proceeding has ever said anything of the sort." Why would they?

"I can well imagine why Prater wouldn’t choose to send a full response to people who believe it is legitimate to compare Jack Stephan to Adolf Hitler." The actual comparison wasn't on a personal level, but noting a particular style of propoganda associated with Third Reich fondness for repeatedly issuing "The Big Lie". I agree that such a comparison's somewhat off base, as I find that Alpa propoganda more closely resembles the more purely fear-based distributions of the Stalinist regime. Speaking of which; I just received the expensive little "How Do We Fix the "Nic"? pamphlet. A few excerpts below:

"Since the Nicolau Award was issued last May, it has remained on the shelf". There's a true ALPA Triumph. Hmm..didn't Prater already "bless" the Sacred Nic?..and..hasn't it been purely the will of the East group, and ALPA's proper fear of decertification, that's kept it from being born into actual reality?

"..the best way to mitigate that award and address our pilots' concerns is through ALPA...With ALPA, we can solve the problems of the "Nic" through consensual negotiations between the East and West pilots..." Words simply fail me here. Perhaps some excerpts from the West's postings may display a few of the little difficulties with that fantasy: "Booshaka!" "It's OVER!" ""Final and Binding!" "Righteous Position" "Ho Ho Ho! St Nic is coming to town!" "NIC-NIC"..and just far, far too many to really bother with anymore....although I'll admit to having some residual enjoyment from my two favorites: "You won't even get 200 Cards!!"...and..."Send the cards, I DARE you!!!" , well..none of this establishes the tiniest rational hope for reasoned solutions within Alpa's Fantasyland FUD Ride, (which eventually just drops everyone off at NIC-land in any case) nor excessive sympathy for wishing to EVER see such "reasonable" individuals, absurdly advanced over one's long-time comrades.

"...stay with ALPA and not roll the dice with a startup union. Mitigating the Nicolau Award is the BEST reason for us to remain together" WOW!!! That's nowadays the "best reason" for ALPA that they've got left?...to "mitigate" their own "processes"? ...that they're "Sworn to Defend"?? This just keeps getting increasingly pathetic, more so by each passing "communication".

Upon reflection; it ill serves either Dr Goebbels or any Stalinist puppet to compare their works with the Alpoids. A great many millions actually found some tragic, and insanely
misguided reasons to believe the former two's presentations.

 

[autofixer]

It may be that this is all moot anyway, with $100+ oil.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The suggestion that Prater gave some sort of illicit or secret instruction to Nicolau is absurd beyond belief and no-one who was part of the proceeding has ever said anything of the sort. The idea that you could try to spin his letter to you (which you chose not to post) into some sort of admission that he had illegally and secretly intervened in the arbitration just shows the extent to which people like you are willing to distort facts and logic. I can well imagine why Prater wouldn’t choose to send a full response to people who believe it is legitimate to compare Jack Stephan to Adolf Hitler.

As to all the chatter about dues, I would not assume that USAPA will inherit ALPA’s agency shop, at least on the west. At NWA the Company forced the PFAA to negotiate the agency shop after it raided the IBT, and did not allow the union to demand mandatory dues until it was time to negotiate concessions. By that time the NWA flight attendants were voting it out and joining the AFA, a multi-carrier AFL-CIO union. We will see if the Company is willing to threaten 1700 pilots with termination for refusing to support a union trying to stuff a new seniority system down their throats.

Let’s see. USAPA is going to get the Company to agree to a DOH seniority system without giving anything in return and force the west pilots to finance this effort. You must have one fabulous professional negotiator. When will you tell us who he is and which pilot contracts he (or she) has negotiated?

As I said, Jack Stephan is using the tried and true techniques that Adolph Hitler took to its hideous height depth. I also said that they are different only in degree; the technique is identical. It is a technique used by many who have little or no truth to their argument, Hitler was merely the most infamous to use this technique to nearly conquer the world. I am not saying that Jack Stephan is a minor Hitler, but the technique is effective (usually) when people don't take the time to pay attention, learn the facts for themselves and give up their power to someone who simply lies to them effectively.

Secondly, the company has NO CHOICE in USAPA having agency shop. The agency shop language is in both the east and west contracts, and the contracts survive a change in CBA fully intact.

USAPA will not be trying to stuff a new seniority system down anyone's throat. Both east and west contracts specify date of hire as the means by which seniority is determined. I'd say that's a pretty strong basis for negotiating with the company as to how the list will be combined, since, again both contracts survive a change in CBA intact.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Let’s see. USAPA is going to get the Company to agree to a DOH seniority system without giving anything in return and force the west pilots to finance this effort.

It just sucks to be you, doesn't it? Seriously, this is what it's all come down to - not playing nice. No you cannot jump to the front of the line! Just remember, those that have stood in line longer get the candy bar first. Don't worry you'll get your candy bar, though, it will take more time and it won't be nearly as big as the one in your dreams.

Later,
Eye

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The suggestion that Prater gave some sort of illicit or secret instruction to Nicolau is absurd beyond belief and no-one who was part of the proceeding has ever said anything of the sort. The idea that you could try to spin his letter to you (which you chose not to post) into some sort of admission that he had illegally and secretly intervened in the arbitration just shows the extent to which people like you are willing to distort facts and logic. I can well imagine why Prater wouldn’t choose to send a full response to people who believe it is legitimate to compare Jack Stephan to Adolf Hitler.

As to all the chatter about dues, I would not assume that USAPA will inherit ALPA’s agency shop, at least on the west. At NWA the Company forced the PFAA to negotiate the agency shop after it raided the IBT, and did not allow the union to demand mandatory dues until it was time to negotiate concessions. By that time the NWA flight attendants were voting it out and joining the AFA, a multi-carrier AFL-CIO union. We will see if the Company is willing to threaten 1700 pilots with termination for refusing to support a union trying to stuff a new seniority system down their throats.

Let’s see. USAPA is going to get the Company to agree to a DOH seniority system without giving anything in return and force the west pilots to finance this effort. You must have one fabulous professional negotiator. When will you tell us who he is and which pilot contracts he (or she) has negotiated?

YOU'RE WRONG. I can't post the letter because it wasn't a letter, it was an email. I don't save ALL my old emails, but in this case I should have. Email him and see if he still has it, if you wish. If he had nothing to hide, why wouldn't he just say as much? No, he responded in a way that made me believe that there WAS something to hide. I've known Jack Stephan for a long time, and I know he's as disappointed with the Nic award as anyone else. Too bad he's been put into his current untenable position by ALPA National.

I've NEVER been a conspiracy theory kind of guy, but it seems to me that ALPA's one agenda item since the failed UAL/U merger would be to destroy seniority issues to make mergers easier for the larger, more junior pilot groups (UAL and DAL). They accomplished this through the Nic award and are suffering the wrath.

As for financing the new seniority system. Yes, all will pay their fair share for a fair system. As for terminating 1700 pilots, that would be up to the company, or the legal system if they fail to pay their dues or agency fees. Anybody that thinks they are not expendable in this career or any other are in for a rude awakening.

What Prater did or didn't say won't matter soon anyway. Get used to it!

Better get your application in soon: http://www.clownsentertain.com/clowncollege.html

 

[EastUS]

What Prater did or didn't say won't matter soon anyway. Get used to it!

Yet another fine example of how well Alpoid "process" and "guidelines" are well serving the industry's pilots:

"On Monday, Delta's pilots union said it had told company executives it can't agree on seniority issues with its counterpart at Northwest, raising serious doubts about the prospect of a combination of the two companies."

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/18/news/compa...=rss_topstories

Umm...side issue, and admittedly petty: Wasn't there some UAL kid, that loved to frequently post here, forever touting that "the majority of pilots" were huge fans of relative "seniority"? One wonders why this "realative seniority" BS doesn't actually serve well within the slightest context of actual reality...anywhere.

 

[767jetz]

Need more proof? Google it yourself.

exB717Flyer,

You're wasting your time with them. You can not reason or speak rationally with the unreasonable and irrational. You are wasting your breath.

767jetz

 

[sharktooth]

I can well imagine why Prater wouldn’t choose to send a full response to people who believe it is legitimate to compare Jack Stephan to Adolf Hitler.

Comparing methodologies is not the same as saying those using them embody each other. You have posited an apples/oranges comparison, then proceeded using that straw-man argument to vilify the poster, doing the same thing you accuse him of doing. Perhaps you got your training from the wing-nut welfare queens that populate our "opinion" media, you are pretty good at it.

The east pilots have learned to blow ALPA propaganda off, having real life experiences to accept or reject what is said. Accumulating real life experiences is what you get with, um, experience. Just hate to see a less experienced group (the west) make the same mistakes as the US, in the early 90's. Seems that if the more experienced group says the stove is hot, you would save everyone a lot of time and effort by not actually testing that assertion by burning our fingers, yet, again.

 

[EastUS]

exB717Flyer,

You can not reason or speak rationally with the unreasonable and irrational. You are wasting your breath.

767jetz

Ah..thus speaketh "The Majority of Pilots" him/herself. Well, for once; I agree with you almost entirely. The difficulty lies though, not in speaking "rationally with the unreasonable and irrational.", but in achieving any, even slight acceptance from them, as to the inherent folly within their Alpa-enabled "It's ALL about MEEEE!!!", wholesale insanity.

When any theory woefully fails the test of actual experimentation, either in the lab or in the field....it's completely, not merely "relatively" insane to maintain it.

 

[b737fo]

Thanks. I stand corrected. But I did read somewhere (I'll see if I can dig it up) that USAPA was setting the fees to the same amount for now. The real issue here is that there is NO benefit to not paying the dues. USAPA is attempting to represent ALL US Airways pilots, and not participating means you don't get to complain about what you end up with!

WRONG! Of course there is a benefit to those who chose not to become a member. First of all it will end up being approx. a 15% discount on union dues according to your illustrious leader Bradford. Secondly, if one felt it necessary to sue the U SAPS then one would not have to pay any assessments that would come up in defense of the union. It would be like feeding both attorneys at once.

Looking forward to tomorrow and interested in how the U SAPS plan on bringing unity to West and East!

 

[EastUS]

WRONG! Of course there is a benefit to those who chose not to become a member.

A valid point, given that Alpa supporters have never evidenced any concern for personal participation in, or even offering much in the way of membership voting on anything.

Have fun

 

[b737fo]

A valid point, given that Alpa supporters have never evidenced any concern for personal participation in, or even offering much in the way of membership voting on anything.

Have fun

Maybe on the East side of ALPA but out West I know of no problem with membership voting at ALPA.

Blue skies.