US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 12/16-22

[ClueByFour]

If you want to know how the company will react to Section 29, one only needs to hear Doug Parker himself tell a PHX pilot at the November crew meeting that, yes indeed, he will fire someone for not paying dues or fees to USAPA.

Parker has to say that, lest he give USAPA a reason to sue the Company for non-performance.

Judging by what they've said and is being grieved, it does not look as if Tempe is looking to do Angry Bradford's work for him.

That having been said, were I a west pilot who had this happen, I'd run (not walk) into Wake's courtroom and get him to enjoin it on the basis of DFR.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Our Unique Corporate Transaction (UTC) pilot, aka. Chip, could never spell "too" correctly either and he flew the bus in LGA. Is that you?

Given my staunch support of USAPA, and Chippy's "got religion" support of ALPA, I can't imagine how you might think that I am he.

There are a lot of us that flew the Bus in LGA. There are a lot that still fly the Bus in LGA, although their numbers are dwindling to the point where they are about to lose a union rep.

 

[nycbusdriver]

huge damages assessments from your group

Ho hum...

That will likely mean a jury trial, and that will be the end of any chance at a decision in 2009. (The judge already told you folks that having a jury will delay the case.)

And then, (if) any huge damages get to be reviewed by the judge for fairness.

And then, the appeals start.

And then MAYBE it might bankrupt USAPA.

At that point we are non-union until another union can be voted in.

Think you'll get enough cards for a vote? Maybe.

Think you'll get a majority vote for whatever union you guys cook up? Hardly.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That having been said, were I a west pilot who had this happen, I'd run (not walk) into Wake's courtroom and get him to enjoin it on the basis of DFR.

Please let me hear the explanation to his honor how a pilot who has not paid dues to the union, and is terminated by the COMPANY for that omission, gets to plead a lack of fair representation on the part of the union for that termination?

It's farcical.

Maybe that's why the AWAPPA or AOL bunch are quietly telling their minions to consider paying up. And maybe that's why they are slowly starting to do so.

 

[hp_fa]

Understand that this Judge said that this merit-less lawsuit was "ripe for adjudication" That's bad for Lee and the boys regardless of how they spin it.

Actually, taken as a statement on it's own, being "ripe for adjudication" simply means that the Court finds that there are no procedural impediments (such as required administrative law hearings, grievance hearings or any other type of non-judicial proceedings) that must occur before the Court can take jurisdiction of the case and subsequently enter an appropriate Judgment once it's proceedings are completed.

 

[cleardirect]

Het, I'm just waiting for the trial to conclude. And it was you that sued USAPA, not the other way around.

As far as immoral, Nicolau set that stage and the west pilots eagerly jumped on. Jesus knows the difference between fair and immoral. So do I. I'm very comfortable with my position, and my conscience in clear. The east only wants what was their coming in (which includes attrition by an overwhelmingly geriatric group,) and Nicolau summarily transferred those opportunities to the west.

I wouldn't want to lose my wallet in the PHX crew room. The west mantra is, no doubt, "Finders keepers, losers weepers." IOW, the kindergarten concept of fairness which most outgrow before puberty.

Just for the record. It was the east MEC that fired the first shot. They filed against individuals in a DC superior court trying to vacate the arbitrated award.

The next law suit was filed by USAPA for RICO again against individuals. Demanding almost $5 million per defendant.

Both of those suits were by choice. The DFR and class action filed in Arizona the west had no choice. We have no other recourse.

I am quite comfortable losing my wallet in PHX. I have misplaced many things but gotten all of it back. Honest pilots here in the west.

 

[cleardirect]

Ho hum...

That will likely mean a jury trial, and that will be the end of any chance at a decision in 2009. (The judge already told you folks that having a jury will delay the case.)

First correct me if I am wrong. Didn’t Seham or Bradford or some USAPA leader already say that it was going to be a jury trial? Perhaps someone misspoke or were just plain wrong. But now you say that it will likely be a jury trial.

I believe that you have it backwards. When I spoke to the lawyer he told me that this could be a bench trial with a jury deciding damages. So the decision would be completed very quickly. The only delay may slip the trial from February to April. The damages would happen sometime soon after that. The judge is not accepting any long delays in this thing. Changing lawyers is not acceptable. Being a small law firm is not an excuse to delay.

Once the judge decides, a short delay to determine damages is OK. As long as we win the DFR and injunction I can wait for the check.

And then, (if) any huge damages get to be reviewed by the judge for fairness.

And then, the appeals start.

Already conceding defeat? Does anyone know the statistics of winning an appeal in the ninth circuit? Less then 6%. That is for all civil cases. Appeals can not be filed just because the party does not like the result. It can only be appealed on a misapplication of the law. I would guess this judge will be careful.

Filing an appeal does not stop or delay the award. Think O.J. sitting in jail. He filed an appeal but still is in jail until it is decided.

And then MAYBE it might bankrupt USAPA.

At that point we are non-union until another union can be voted in.

Think you'll get enough cards for a vote? Maybe.

Think you'll get a majority vote for whatever union you guys cook up? Hardly.

All unknown at this point. Something the east pilots should start to consider. Just how far are all of you willing to push this situation? Burn down your own union? Live with LOA 93 for another 2-3 years. Who will you blame? Bradford and yourselves or are you going to find the nearest scapegoat?

Maybe point your anger at Seham for giving you bad advice? We are in this together. If the west is without a union so is the east. You guys forced the single carrier status. We can live with it. We have been non union before how about the east?

 

[nostradamus]

Nos,
What burns you up more? The fact that your legal team/USAPA is falling apart at the seams or the fact that you cannot do anything about it.

Nothing burns me up. You are on the street because of furloughs, you were only hired a few years ago. It is not a happy situation but it is the correct one. By the way, how is your disability claim going?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Nothing burns me up. You are on the street because of furloughs, you were only hired a few years ago. It is not a happy situation but it is the correct one. By the way, how is your disability claim going?

I think you may have me confused with someone else... I am not furloughed. Yet. Sounds like maybe in the spring. Maybe Judge Wake will have some effect on that. I certainly don't count on it though. As far as my disability, well that ended some time ago and I am doing better than ever. Thank you for your concern.

Ya know I got to thinking here... Something has to burn you up Nos! Why else would you try to spew your venom every opportunity you get?

 

[Freighterguynow]

I guess using that logic the Nicolau list is a true windfall for the east. They got the first 517 before he started ratioing in about 2 for 1.

Putting the number 1 AWA pilot on the list DOH would place him at position 848.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Sorry Freight I thought you were debating my statement that the list was the list for the Atlas/Polar guys. I completely missed your suggestion that their list is DOH... However it seems relative to me. Huh. Funny we should disagree. :huh:

I'm not suggesting the list was DOH - you lumped it in with 2 other awards and called them 'fair' as if relative position was the law of the land.

It is not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Just for the record. It was the east MEC that fired the first shot. They filed against individuals in a DC superior court trying to vacate the arbitrated award.

The next law suit was filed by USAPA for RICO again against individuals. Demanding almost $5 million per defendant.

Both of those suits were by choice. The DFR and class action filed in Arizona the west had no choice. We have no other recourse.

I am quite comfortable losing my wallet in PHX. I have misplaced many things but gotten all of it back. Honest pilots here in the west.

The east MEC (by the time the election was over, it was 100% morons, IMHO) fired the first shot, so the east pilots fired them. And now you have a problem with that. Hmmm. Maybe years of stupid crap like that is the reason we have a new union. Food for thought...at least for those capable of such.

The suit by USAPA against a group of west pilots has been beaten to death here. I know how you feel about it. You know how I feel about it. Let's wait for this court action to conclude, also. Let the chips fall where they may.

As far as the west lawsuit, I understand. I really do. And I am not even the slightest bit surprised. And I will await the results of that litigation and settle in with it. I am not convinced it will go either way. As I said before, courts have a habit of coming up with surprising results.

Honest pilots in the west? Probably. I am certain I would get along well with at least 95% of them, as I do with 95% of the east pilots. There are always 5% in any group that pose problems for everybody.

First correct me if I am wrong. Didn’t Seham or Bradford or some USAPA leader already say that it was going to be a jury trial? Perhaps someone misspoke or were just plain wrong. But now you say that it will likely be a jury trial.

I believe that you have it backwards. When I spoke to the lawyer he told me that this could be a bench trial with a jury deciding damages. So the decision would be completed very quickly. The only delay may slip the trial from February to April. The damages would happen sometime soon after that. The judge is not accepting any long delays in this thing. Changing lawyers is not acceptable. Being a small law firm is not an excuse to delay.

Once the judge decides, a short delay to determine damages is OK. As long as we win the DFR and injunction I can wait for the check.



Already conceding defeat? Does anyone know the statistics of winning an appeal in the ninth circuit? Less then 6%. That is for all civil cases. Appeals can not be filed just because the party does not like the result. It can only be appealed on a misapplication of the law. I would guess this judge will be careful.

Filing an appeal does not stop or delay the award. Think O.J. sitting in jail. He filed an appeal but still is in jail until it is decided.

All unknown at this point. Something the east pilots should start to consider. Just how far are all of you willing to push this situation? Burn down your own union? Live with LOA 93 for another 2-3 years. Who will you blame? Bradford and yourselves or are you going to find the nearest scapegoat?

Maybe point your anger at Seham for giving you bad advice? We are in this together. If the west is without a union so is the east. You guys forced the single carrier status. We can live with it. We have been non union before how about the east?

I said "likely" jury trial simply because I don't really know how it will go. If damages are sought, the jury gets to decide them. USAPA is seeking a jury, and I don't know if the judge can say no as long as the west wants damages. I doubt it. I am told the judge has already told the litigants that a jury trial would extend the process. IMHO, and ONLY IMHO, I think he is hinting that a bench trial would certainly be faster and, if the west wins, the remedy they seek can be imposed at the judge's discretion. Simple and clean.

The O.J. Simpson case is criminal. Has little to do with a civil trial, and the Simpson case is very high profile. Letting him walk pending appeal would not be politically correct given his past history. (If you think politics is absent from court proceedings, see Bush vs. Gore with the Supremes in 2000.)

How far will be push? Like I said before, I will happily live with the status quo until the last gavel. Burn down the union? If it comes to that, then we will ALL, east and west, likely live with LOA 93 or worse. Once we are non-union, both contracts are good for papering the wall and little else. The company would like nothing more than to equalize our pay...at east rates. So, are YOU willing to burn down YOUR own union? (Actually, I am willing to see this group non-union before caving into Nicolau....and my seniority number is north of 300 whichever way it goes.)

I understand that you have been non-union before. Was it under these economic conditions? With this management group? Didn't think so.

 

[Art at ISP]

So just playing devil's advocate here, realizing there is going to be a trial, let me ask one simple question?

How does the current economic situation of the world figure into this equation? Do you think that it will affect a judge or jury's thought process? Wouldn't one think that the economy would give some impetus to trying to find a solution that everyone can live with without a trial?

It seems like there are those on both sides who are willing to just burn the place down right now...is that really a wise choice?


Just asking....

Happy Holidays to all and please fly safe.

 

[nycbusdriver]

How does the current economic situation of the world figure into this equation? Do you think that it will affect a judge or jury's thought process?

IMHO, probably won't impact the trial or decision. But it's just opinion.

Wouldn't one think that the economy would give some impetus to trying to find a solution that everyone can live with without a trial?

Makes perfect sense. King Solomon himself could offer to help find a solution, and neither side would hear of it. That's how deeply felt this issue is on both sides. So it has come down to Judge Wake playing King Solomon, a poor substitute in my opinion, but it is what it is.

It seems like there are those on both sides who are willing to just burn the place down right now...is that really a wise choice?

No one want to burn "the place" down, and I seriously doubt that will happen. The future of the pilot group as a union shop is seriously in question, though. And both sides, IMHO, will let that particular house "burn down" if it comes to that.

 

[Art at ISP]

Thanks for the reply. Your point about the future of the pilot group as a union shop is very interesting, considering all the attention big unions like the UAW are getting right now.

So what would the alternative to a union be? At will employment without representation? Do you think the rank and file would accept that?

Thanks again and Happy Holidays.