US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29

[fr8tmastr]

Was that a Freudian slip brought about by the trauma of the Shoap Goat video?

It must have I fixed it

 

[Tiger 1050]

Ironic that nobody on the East side ever mentions what else Doug has said - that "old" US was facing liquidation without the merger. If Doug's words are going to carry so much weight, what do the numerous mentions of East liquidation say for East "career expectations" at the time? BTW, Lakefield basically said the same in BK court filings, which I've quoted before.

Seems that the West has shrunk, although they had airplanes scheduled for delivery when the merger was announced. Meanwhile, East had no airplanes scheduled for delivery and was scheduled to shrink further, but hasn't only because of airplanes that were on no delivery schedule when the merger was announced.

Now that the post-merger fleet "dust" has settled, seems like some East "oracles" are more than happy to say "This was the plan all along so that flying is ours" while using the mere possibility of West BK/shrinkage to proclaim that it was obviously going to happen and the West pilots should just be happy not to be on the street.

Jim

Let us not confuse ourselves with the facts!!!!

Jim you are breath of fresh air on this board! As always thank you for bringing an honest view to the discussion...

 

[sharktooth]

Ironic that nobody on the East side ever mentions what else Doug has said - that "old" US was facing liquidation without the merger. If Doug's words are going to carry so much weight, what do the numerous mentions of East liquidation say for East "career expectations" at the time? BTW, Lakefield basically said the same in BK court filings, which I've quoted before.

Please re-reference both cites because I cannot find them.

Also, if you are trying to convince a judge that you need bk protection, why would you not use the word, liquidation. Always in context, Jim.

It was after bk was sold that Parker stated that AWA had one month to go to liquidation and US would be in bk without a merger, curiously different characterizations.

Seems that the West has shrunk, although they had airplanes scheduled for delivery when the merger was announced. Meanwhile, East had no airplanes scheduled for delivery and was scheduled to shrink further, but hasn't only because of airplanes that were on no delivery schedule when the merger was announced.

Circumstances change all the time. The merging of US with the Star Alliance (good thing) and, as other carriers fell by the way-side opening up their "slots" demand an agile carrier take advantage of whatever they can. Are you saying that because AWA is poorly positioned to take advantage of those areas that US should bury 757s in a PHX-LAS shuttle?

Now that the post-merger fleet "dust" has settled, seems like some East "oracles" are more than happy to say "This was the plan all along so that flying is ours" while using the mere possibility of West BK/shrinkage to proclaim that it was obviously going to happen and the West pilots should just be happy not to be on the street.

Not all of the US pilots bought the "doom and gloom" that the MEC and ALPA National took hook, line and sinker. That is why many pilots screamed "no way" when the morons shouted, "a deal, any deal", apparently wanting to sign away blank checks to Glass. The delay gave a slightly better deal than the fools wanted to sign, still a bad deal that will bite US pilots for years to come.

 

[luvthe9]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?â€

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain

 

[Phoenix]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.
.....

I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. ...

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval.

When we are young we can't know how smart our dads are.

If it is an honest vote, the results of the vote will reflect that axiom.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (autofixer @ Mar 29 2008, 03:10 PM)
Doug said that they were also on the verge of BK and downsizing prior to the merger. Now they are exactly were their "career expectations" put them; actually better, considerign Doug said they would have downsized."

Ironic that nobody on the East side ever mentions what else Doug has said - that "old" US was facing liquidation without the merger. If Doug's words are going to carry so much weight, what do the numerous mentions of East liquidation say for East "career expectations" at the time? BTW, Lakefield basically said the same in BK court filings, which I've quoted before.

Seems that the West has shrunk, although they had airplanes scheduled for delivery when the merger was announced. Meanwhile, East had no airplanes scheduled for delivery and was scheduled to shrink further, but hasn't only because of airplanes that were on no delivery schedule when the merger was announced.

Now that the post-merger fleet "dust" has settled, seems like some East "oracles" are more than happy to say "This was the plan all along so that flying is ours" while using the mere possibility of West BK/shrinkage to proclaim that it was obviously going to happen and the West pilots should just be happy not to be on the street.

Jim

Tiger: "Let us not confuse ourselves with the facts!!!!" I couldn't agree more. The facts evidently are that no two individuals can apparently ever agree on what "career expectations" were/are reasonable. Here; we have yet another real-world argument in favor of establishing seniority based upon a more tangible methodology. Dare I say DOH? ...or should pilot groups continue to stick with "My crystal ball is better than yours!" to be met only with "No it's not!!" and, as always; "Let's always just go to an arbitrator!!". That last's clearly in reference to the actual results of Alpa's "policy" within the real world. Why bother with Alpa then? Why not just have arbitrators on speed dial for all pilot group issues?

Perhaps it's best to just stay with the brilliant, and democratically minded Alpo Reps for most issues though. Witness their arrogant, procedural brilliance yet again as noted by the Continental gentleman's post: " Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval." By AWA-Alpo "thinking"..that MUST have been the fault of the CAL pilots, and in no way offers any even slightly assignable responsibility towards Alpo.

"In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?” One well "might" wonder

"I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.
Fraternally, Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain "

A minor point of personal curiosity = Since this gentlemean's not only not a "Career FO", but not even directly related to USAirways....umm..what's that say about the AWA fantasy of USAPA being the "Angry Career FO's" union? Anyone have any quality Alpa "spin" to put up? If not for that case, then how about some good-old-fashioned "Righteous Position"/"United ALPA Pilots"/etc Alpoid BS that can properly explain, or "justify" the following: Leonidas: "Nope, I want the captain seat and contract that the east has held hostage, I want to make up for the last 3 years of stagnation on the west, due directly to east actions, I want to make up for contractual gains the east stymied, and most of all I want every single east pilot to pay for it." Anyone want to seriously attempt any proper spin on all the "I want"/It's ALL entirely about MEEE!!..."and most of all I want every single east pilot to pay for it" fraternal BS from the west? Umm...ANYONE?..Anyone at all? Cue up "The Sounds of Silence".....


Ah well...I'd think that the majority of votes have been cast by now. Anyone that doesn't yet "get it" probably never will in any case.

 

[hp_fa]

Also, if you are trying to convince a judge that you need bk protection, why would you not use the word, liquidation. Always in context, Jim.

Bankruptcy encompasses both reorganization and liquidation. While they are not mutually exclusive, they are separate tracks with differing results. You can file for reorganization, fail to reorganize, and convert to a liquidation. If you file liquidation, absent fraud being discovered, you will come out liquidated. There is no reason for a petitioner to file for reorganization and feel they need to use the term "liquidation" to threaten or impress a judge. In fact, since the documents submitted to the Court are notorized or sworn, there is a good reason not to embellish and that reason is perjury.

Does that answer your question?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Please re-reference both cites because I cannot find them.

Do a seach of my posts with "Lakefield" as the keyword - you'll find where I've posted his words within the last month or two. If you want the source, look for his affidavit supporting the merger as a part of the POR - the site with all the filings is still available the last time I looked a week or so ago. Parker's words come from several different sources - earnings conference calls, the press event with Spectre, etc.

Also, if you are trying to convince a judge that you need bk protection, why would you not use the word, liquidation. Always in context, Jim.

It's you that is assuming Lakefield's words were in the context of convincing a judge that US needed BK protection and that couldn't be further from the truth. And the context of Parker's words, which you forgot to mention? Talking to West pilots about the seniority integration - trying to calm emotions on the West, maybe?

It was after bk was sold that Parker stated that AWA had one month to go to liquidation and US would be in bk without a merger, curiously different characterizations.

Obviously, Parker was wrong about HP. US filed for BK in Oct 04. Nearly a year later, when US exited BK/merged, HP was still not in BK, much less liquidated. FYI, Parker has said the "HP was facing BK and US was facing liquidation without the merger" line a lot more times than the reverse. But saying both may be good reason to disregard everything he said about both carriers financial status instead of just picking whatever fits one's argument and disregarding the rest....

One things for sure - US, about 65% bigger than HP with disproportionately higher expenses, had a little less cash available before the merger than HP. Which would you say was in better financial shape based on that?

Are you saying that because AWA is poorly positioned to take advantage of those areas that US should bury 757s in a PHX-LAS shuttle?

Certainly not. Just saying that it seems that some East pilots have decided the the flying added by airplanes that weren't on any East delivery schedule when the merger was announced has become part of the East "expectations" that existed when the merger was announced. All that about the 400 post-merger upgrades being due solely to "attrition". Most be some new-fangled airplanes that don't create jobs when they arrive on property.....

Not all of the US pilots bought the "doom and gloom" that the MEC and ALPA National took hook, line and sinker.

Certainly not - that's why about 43% of LOA 93 votes cast were "No" votes. Wonder how many of the 57% that not only voted yes, but demanded the right to vote yes, now claim to be blameless and point the finger of blame only at ALPA......

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sharktooth,

Here's just the latest "cite" to save you a little trouble.....

Pre-Merger
•US Airways on the brink of liquidation
•America West future was uncertain

JP Morgan Conference Presentation by Kirby - Page 11

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Certainly not - that's why about 43% of LOA 93 votes cast were "No" votes. Wonder how many of the 57% that not only voted yes, but demanded the right to vote yes, now claim to be blameless and point the finger of blame only at ALPA......

Not me. I've not found anything Alpa's produced to be worthy of a Yes vote in..I can't even remember how long now. Nice spin though

"but demanded the right to vote" How utterly "uppity" of them by any/all Alpoid standards..I can see why you might feel the need to mention such an absurd outrage

From there; We merely descend back into the depths of who-saved-who arguments, and all the inherent insanity within "expectations" and "relative" notions yet once again. The outcome of which is inevitablly conflict between effected groups, and eventual arbitration under Alpa's enlightened "policy"...said "policy" at Herndon amounting to nothing more usefull than Alfred E Neumann's famous "What..Me Worry?" followed shortly by "Somebody grab another arbitratior"

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not me. I've not found anything Alpa's produced to be worthy of a Yes vote in..I can't even remember how long now. Nice spin though

Maybe "spin" as it pertains to you and I, but apparently 57% of those who voted on LOA 93 felt differently. Unless, of course, you have proof that all those pilots demanding the right to vote yes were acting, nobody voted "Yes", but it still passed.......

"but demanded the right to vote" How utterly "uppity" of them by any/all Alpoid standards..I can see why you might feel the need to mention such an absurd outrage

You left out a key word - "but demanded the right to vote yes". Have you forgotten the "Let my daddy vote" sign already??? Interesting spin on your part though - the company proposal that became LOA 93 wasn't worth voting yes on but let's let those who bought the GAG's sob story hook, line, and sinker pass it anyway - you can always blame someone besides those who actually ratified it. Can I assume that you believe every company proposal, just like the one that became LOA 93, should go out for a membership vote?

Jim

 

[nostradamus]

Vote USAPA - The Truth about ALPA at Continental.

Dear US Airways Pilots,


I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger
EWR B737 Captain

Very courageous letter Roger. Hopefully one day a young person who wants to be a pilot will have you as a union leader. I am ashamed to say I belonged to cowards on flight pay loss alpa union. They are allowing scabing, drug running, drunk flying pilots of america west to dictate policy. The only reason they are in the position they are in is because the have an alcoholic ceo who sold his soul for 5.8 mil. These are facts. If anyone disputes this, I will be glad to provide proof.

This is not your fathers alpa union anymore, you are the future and it is hopeful.

 

[EastUS]

Maybe "spin" as it pertains to you and I, but apparently 57% of those who voted on LOA 93 felt differently. Unless, of course, you have proof that all those pilots demanding the right to vote yes were acting, nobody voted "Yes", but it still passed.......


You left out a key word - "but demanded the right to vote yes". Have you forgotten the "Let my daddy vote" sign already??? Interesting spin on your part though - the company proposal that became LOA 93 wasn't worth voting yes on but let's let those who bought the GAG's sob story hook, line, and sinker pass it anyway - you can always blame someone besides those who actually ratified it. Can I assume that you believe every company proposal, just like the one that became LOA 93, should go out for a membership vote?

Jim

"nobody voted "Yes", but it still passed......." It's not escaped me that all vote counting was done without the least bit of any impartial observers...Al Gore, apparently "worthy" of a Nobel, would have a field day with that alone "Hanging chads my arse..where ARE the votes, much less any chads?"

I do appreciate your mentioning: "but let's let those who bought the GAG's sob story hook, line, and sinker pass it anyway -" For those not present at the times involved; the GAG, an abbreviation for Give Away Gang, did indeed routinely put up a huge batch lot of "The Sky is Falling" BS..and apparently did so with the full counsel of brilliant Alpa Advisors.

"Can I assume that you believe every company proposal, just like the one that became LOA 93, should go out for a membership vote?" You most certainly may sir, given that any such should be accompanied by a counter proposel first In the absence of any Alpoid Give Away Gang, using the "Deal!..ANY Deal!!" approach, and with the hopefull employment of more reasoned and open communications and "Advice"...I'm optimistic about obtaining better results. It would be virtually impossible to obtain worse results than we've thus far seen in any case. Time will tell.

 

[nostradamus]

Maybe "spin" as it pertains to you and I, but apparently 57% of those who voted on LOA 93 felt differently. Unless, of course, you have proof that all those pilots demanding the right to vote yes were acting, nobody voted "Yes", but it still passed.......

How did you vote on loa 93 and why?

 

[BoeingBoy]

"Can I assume that you believe every company proposal, just like the one that became LOA 93, should go out for a membership vote?" You most certainly may sir

So USAPA won't need a negotiator in your opinion - professional or otherwise. The company just sends their proposals straight to the pilots for a vote. Interesting concept, but it should save some fpl from all those negotiations that won't be needed......

Jim