US Pilots Labor Thread 8/20-8/27- NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[ClueByFour]

You think so? Let's wait and see. I'd be betting it will all move forward with the Ninth Circuit, and everyone will get to start over again. The homer will have to explain his positions and I don't think they'll stand, IMHO. Too early for you to prognosticate in any event. Seemed like the 9th jumped on he bandwagon pretty quick not to be interisted.

I prognosticated that USAPA would get DFR'd from the day the idea was floated. Obviously, I was early. Mea Culpa.

That said (and perhaps one of the folks with PACER access can confirm this) that USAPA motioned for an expedited hearing and it went unopposed. What do you suppose the 9th would do, then?

It's worth noting that prior to the actual appeal, they've shot down everything Seeham has tried running up before/during the trial. *shrug*

As for the "homer," you have a guy who (literally!) wrote the book on appellate law.

 

[Megasnoop]

I would not want to be made to look like the village idiot either--this mindset actually makes some sense in that regard. So then why do you continue to come here to harp on it, unless you are the USAPA designated shill?

I said hp was “unibiased,†even put it in quotes. I’m off this week, no shilling. Even gold-plated per diem/ FPL has limit. I don't know whose up this week. The officers are very secretive about that.

You are right in one respect--the line of quotes that someone will be able to string together after the 9th shoots this down and USAPA potentially loses the pay arbitration is going to be epic

Could be. Or we could win. Insults, real, imagined, FUD on either side won’t change a thing. The ninth will decide.

HP-FA gave a totally unbiased report. I would think that since most pilots could not be there to see the proceedings would appreciate the report. But then when someone wants to stick their heads in the sand so be it.

Did he? Seems there’s some conflicting info here. Either hp missed it or the USAPA release was bias. The transcript will tell. Hp said, “The parties than discussed the Plaintiffs motion for attorneys’ fees and the legal theory of recovery. The Plaintiffs contend that the questions will be questions of law, not of fact and therefore the Plaintiffs do not expect that an evidentiary hearing will be required to decide the over-riding questions. The Court was somewhat skeptical that there would not need to be an evidentiary hearing, but decided that the Defendant would need to respond to that by 10/26/09 and that if the Defendant made a substantial argument that an evidentiary hearing would be required that the schedule would be modified.â€
USAPA said, “Plaintiffs indicated that they will file a brief supporting their request for attorneys fees within the next ten days, but the judge expressed concern about whether there was even any legal basis for awarding attorneys fees. He then directed that the legal issue be addressed before any evidence matters are considered.â€
They can't both be right. When the transcript comes out we’ll know who’s spinning. I could see hp overlooking, since it doesn’t help with his followers. But I can’t see any reason USAPA to make it up. That would be bad form, tsk, tsk, caught in a whopper. If made up, they should be called on it.

The next two proceedings are the expensive part of this trial. $1.8 million on legal fees and possible multi-million damages. All in front of judge Wake. So HP-FA should be thanked for the report not ridiculed.

We’ll see if hp was totally unbiased after a look-see at the transcripts. Either Wake “expressed concern about whether there was even any legal basis for awarding attorneys fees†or he didn’t. If he did, then I’m sure hp will explain why he forgot to mention it. I don’t see is a decision on either until after the appeal.

So are you saying that if usapa loses in the ninth they will not be going to SCOTUS? Taking you at your word the appeals court will decide. Will the east accept what the ninth says?

My word? Like I’m a BPR or something? Those calls are above my gold-plated per diem/FPL grade. On appeals, if the ninth rules against us “on a matter of law,†I understand attorneys seldom take a matter of law to the Supreme court, since there’s so little chance of certiary.

 

[cleardirect]

Well once again it seems that usapa is incapable of performing even the most basic union function. Many of us have received a reconciliation statement. Oops, basic accounting functions and billing procedures are just out of reach for the men of genius at usapa.

Would any of you put up with the company underpaying you? Then why would you allow a union to overcharge you? For all of you screaming “pay your bill or get firedâ€￾. How about sending an accurate bill? Usapa should do their job properly before moving to the next step.

Just found out that ALL of the reconciliation statements are WRONG and need to be redone. Way to go boys.

 

[hp_fa]

We’ll see if hp was totally unbiased after a look-see at the transcripts. Either Wake “expressed concern about whether there was even any legal basis for awarding attorneys feesâ€￾ or he didn’t. If he did, then I’m sure hp will explain why he forgot to mention it. I don’t see is a decision on either until after the appeal.

I'll be fine with a comparison to the transcript. But remember that my notes were being taken as the Hearing was ongoing and that I can only take notes and pay attention at a reasonable rate. But feel free to point out any significant errors.

 

[WhatBag?]

Why do you care? If his viewpoints supported your point of view, would you care less?

Just asked a question. Mind your own business!

 

[WhatBag?]

Answer

Thanks for answering. It's amazing how this industry stays in one's blood.

 

[hp_fa]

Thanks for answering. It's amazing how this industry stays in one's blood.

Actually, law also. When people ask why I left it my answer is that I love the law, but I hate the practice of law.

 

[nic4us]

Well once again it seems that usapa is incapable of performing even the most basic union function. Many of us have received a reconciliation statement. Oops, basic accounting functions and billing procedures are just out of reach for the men of genius at usapa.

Would any of you put up with the company underpaying you? Then why would you allow a union to overcharge you? For all of you screaming “pay your bill or get firedâ€￾. How about sending an accurate bill? Usapa should do their job properly before moving to the next step.

Just found out that ALL of the reconciliation statements are WRONG and need to be redone. Way to go boys.

Election redo, now reconciliation redo?

Do they just not know how to run a union, are they intentionally running up expenses other than legal bills, are they laying grounds for some kind of future ineptitude defense?

I was informed usapa has sent a section 29 letter to a West member in good standing. Simple error or blatant harassement, what should be the consequences for this act? Under normal circumstances I would think a letter of apology, documenting the error, would be adequate. However, since usapa is playing with termination stakes regarding section 29, I think turnabout is fair game.

 

[Barrister]

I have a a multi part question.

1. How many YEARS will it take for every appeal (From either side) to be exhausted?


2. Given the number of years above what would the Nic list look like after retirements?

Piney as to # 2 above do ya really gotta ask,,,,,after all this electronic ink??????????
There really won't be any retirements for about 2 1/2 years. If you think the West is sreamimg/whining about NIC now what do you think would have happened if the age 60 rule had not been changed.....let me tell you ...during these 3 years of litigation conservatively 600 people would have moved up on the East......most retiements would have been off of the widebodies and narrow as well. If the West saw 600 East guys "moving up on their backs"and taking what NIC "rightfully gave them" the cardiac units in PHX would be full. 600 co-pilots in the East would now be Captains now if the age 60 rule had not been changed.

Need money for appeals...checks in the mail

VNIIMN

 

[cleardirect]

Piney as to # 2 above do ya really gotta ask,,,,,after all this electronic ink??????????
There really won't be any retirements for about 2 1/2 years. If you think the West is sreamimg/whining about NIC now what do you think would have happened if the age 60 rule had not been changed.....let me tell you ...during these 3 years of litigation conservatively 600 people would have moved up on the East......most retiements would have been off of the widebodies and narrow as well. If the West saw 600 East guys "moving up on their backs"and taking what NIC "rightfully gave them" the cardiac units in PHX would be full. 600 co-pilots in the East would now be Captains now if the age 60 rule had not been changed.

Need money for appeals...checks in the mail

VNIIMN

Do you have any data that says that all the retirements are captains?

One of the complaints is that all of these east F/O's will never upgrade.

So what is it. All captains retiring or F/O's never upgrading? It can't be both.

 

[ClueByFour]

I was informed usapa has sent a section 29 letter to a West member in good standing. Simple error or blatant harassement, what should be the consequences for this act? Under normal circumstances I would think a letter of apology, documenting the error, would be adequate. However, since usapa is playing with termination stakes regarding section 29, I think turnabout is fair game.

Complain to the department of labor, and find a lawyer who will sue on contingency.

 

[flybynite]

No way I would commute, I will just move to CLT, get a house on a lake somewhere, a fish and ski, maybe bring a potted Cactus with me. Any airpark fly in communities on a lake near CLT, that may be the best ticket, heck I might not wait a decade for PHX to close I might just move now.

or

Perhaps we can keep PHX and LAS open long enough to absorb the LGA closure, remember with separate ops per the TA you are all welcome to come out West just as soon as we recall our furloughs so we can give you a spot below them until we get joint ops and you can take your rightful place on the list.

Welcome to Charlotte!

We have plenty of room for you. Can't say how that potted cacti will handle the weather here but if you feel compeled to kill a plant...have at it.

 

[nic4us]

Piney as to # 2 above do ya really gotta ask,,,,,after all this electronic ink??????????
There really won't be any retirements for about 2 1/2 years. If you think the West is sreamimg/whining about NIC now what do you think would have happened if the age 60 rule had not been changed.....let me tell you ...during these 3 years of litigation conservatively 600 people would have moved up on the East......most retiements would have been off of the widebodies and narrow as well. If the West saw 600 East guys "moving up on their backs"and taking what NIC "rightfully gave them" the cardiac units in PHX would be full. 600 co-pilots in the East would now be Captains now if the age 60 rule had not been changed.

Need money for appeals...checks in the mail

VNIIMN

Barrister,

Your reply to Pinney demonstrates your total lack of understanding of the Nic, the current make up of the company, and how retirement effects the work group.

First, all else being equall, with Nic in place, had age 60 not changed, we simply would not have had to furlough 300 pilots. If the number of retirements from east and West combined equalled 600, that would have left 300 retirements creating openings. Since Nic is ratioed, in the simplest, terms east would have captured 200 of those 300, 66%. In seperate ops, east would have captured closer to 300, yet that still does not mean 300 captain seats, much less the 600 you pull out of thin air.

False assumptions you are making.

1. all retirements come from the east. While the west retirement rate is significantly less it is not nonexistant and adds to the total.

2. all retirements come from the top of the list. Generally speaking the majority of retirees have some greater degree of longivity but that does not mean they have reached the top of the seniority list.

3. all retirements are Captains. Biggest fallacy. Believe it or not as we type, there are West F/Os still working who have reached their 60th birthday. So I am pretty darn certain the same holds true for the east.

4. West pilots have heart trouble. There has been no run on the cardiac units in PHX during the three years east pilots have been stealing our jobs, what makes you think we would have a higher turnout at the ER had age 60 not changed?


If you need money for appeals, go ask Seham for a loan, I hear he has made a millions in the last few years.

 

[luvthe9]

If you need money for appeals, go ask Seham for a loan, I hear he has made a millions in the last few years.

Money well spent with a win of the appeal.

 

[hp_fa]

Just out of curiosity, what about the cumulative costs if USAPA loses at the Ninth Circuit? I know the question is speculative, but I wonder how folks will feel about the expenditure if USAPA were to lose?