US Pilots Labor Thread 8/20-8/27- NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Barrister]

Just out of curiosity, what about the cumulative costs if USAPA loses at the Ninth Circuit? I know the question is speculative, but I wonder how folks will feel about the expenditure if USAPA were to lose?

HP,

With all due respect, you aren't getting it either....NIC is a career killer for over half of our pilots. We don't care what it costs. We get raises as we move up, and we will soon.

 

[hp_fa]

HP,

With all due respect, you aren't getting it either....NIC is a career killer for over half of our pilots. We don't care what it costs. We get raises as we move up, and we will soon.

Actually, I do get it. However it seems that USAPA and the East folks are fighting a battle that they have lost at every venue they have contested the merged seniority list. So what it appears to mean to me at a lowest common denominator level is that prolonging the fight is worth the money because it postpones the Nic integration.

Is that basically correct?

 

[john john]

that prolonging the fight is worth the money because it postpones the Nic integration.

Is that basically correct?

No, it’s because in legal labor circles USAPA has a case you should know that

 

[cleardirect]

No, it’s because in legal labor circles USAPA has a case you should know that

Well the question was, what if? What if usapa legal circle is, however small it is, WRONG?

Will it all be worth it if the appeal fails?

 

[john john]

Well the question was, what if? What if usapa legal circle is, however small it is, WRONG?

Will it all be worth it if the appeal fails?

That is why all parties need to sit down and bargain and negotiate everybody stands to lose and/or gain butttttttttt HP think USAPA has no case so go with that

 

[nic4us]

That is why all parties need to sit down and bargain and negotiate everybody stands to lose and/or gain butttttttttt HP think USAPA has no case so go with that

That is what we are doing, bargaining. Since the east has proven itself to be less than honorable, we are simply bargaining with enforcement attached.

Bargaining towards seniority integration ended over 2 years ago. Now we are bargaining over who will pay the price for delaying implementation, stopping joint negotiations, and breaking contracts.

 

[exB717Flyer]

NIC is a career killer for over half of our pilots.

Actually, the two US Airways bankruptcies killed those careers. Mr. Nicolau only sustained it.

We don't care what it costs.

I think you soon shall.

 

[nic4us]

HP,

With all due respect, you aren't getting it either....NIC is a career killer for over half of our pilots. We don't care what it costs. We get raises as we move up, and we will soon.

Barrister,

Where do you come up with this stuff? How can the Nic kill the career of "over half of our pilots"? Due to the top 517, over half your pilots moved up in seniority, and quite considerably under the Nic. How does moving up in seniority kill their career?

Nic is a fair outcome of a fair process, needed as a result of a merger that saved the careers of "over half our pilots", and by over half I mean all.

You need to start caring what it cost, because the tab you are running could soon be unpayable.

 

[cleardirect]

That is why all parties need to sit down and bargain and negotiate everybody stands to lose and/or gain butttttttttt HP think USAPA has no case so go with that

We have been over this before. There is no more bargaining or negotiating. That time has long passed.

Let’s look at the possibilities.

USAPA and the east pilots think you are going to win the appeal. So there will be no bargaining until the ninth has heard the case.

The ninth affirms the federal judge and jury. Nicolau stands as written. Besides no one to negotiate with why would the west now want to change anything after going through all of this?

The ninth sends it back to another trial. This delays things another 6-12 month. Depending on how that trial comes out. The west wins again, does usapa appeal that ruling? We are now 2-3 years from now. All that time no pay, no contract.

The ninth agrees with usapa. Throws the entire case out and usapa wins outright. Now is the east willing to bargain and negotiate something good for both sides? No I doubt it. That means that usapa has to now go to the company to try and negotiate a different seniority list.

The company has already said that the Nicolau is the list they accepted. I have been told that if usapa is allowed to negotiate anything other than the Nicolau. The company starts with the Nicolau not DOH. It will then be up to usapa to buy anything more than what it is now.

What happens if usapa wins the appeal but is unable to negotiate a better list then what we have now? How much will have been given away on an experiment?

So at what point would the bargaining and negotiation come in? No this is an all or nothing situation. The time for compromise is long gone.

 

[des nudo]

The time for compromise is long gone.

I finally agree with you on something. There is no need to argue anymore. It bores most of the East...and has no bearing on the legal matter anyway. I'm sure the west is high-fiving adequately on your own chats...so to banter here is silly, and pointless. You and yours will NEVER convince anyone out East on your position (save for a handfull of FPL guys who miss the gravy-train) You (and them) don't have voting horsepower to affect anything anyway...even our $35 million dollar paycheck this DEC. (And next too) So this is all hollow "flexing" at best.

The sides are set in stone. Time for your bandleaders to deal with that and stop arguing....it's not working.

 

[des nudo]

Will it all be worth it if the appeal fails?

In a word...yes.

Too much has been stolen from the East over the years...from the management AND from ALPA shills who hid behind closed doors and inked deals that extinguished careers. Nicolau did the same. The fact that the ALPA process led up to that is academic. Under scrutiny, the defection from "published" ALPA policy by Nicolau will be illuminated. More importantly, as john-john stated, the larger legal issue of union authority will be examined by a higher court.

Either way, it's worth it...no more freebies.

 

[aquagreen73s]

There is no need to argue anymore. It bores most of the East...and has no bearing on the legal matter anyway.

Agreed. I've reached the exhaustion stage.

I'm sure the west is high-fiving adequately on your own chats...

Absolutely incorrect. Although there are a few of what you describe, they are few in numbers and also are likely to have not donated to the legal campaign. In short, the high fivers are juveniles who look after themselves. Both sides have them. The vast majority of West pilots are relieved, and that's it. We were staring down a majority rules cram down of what the majority thought was fair, and now that cram downn will not occur. Whew. But we're all still back to square one. The East has LOA 93 ad infinitum and the West has 147 furloughs. Bad for everyone.

You (and them) don't have voting horsepower to affect anything anyway...even our $35 million dollar paycheck this DEC. (And next too) So this is all hollow "flexing" at best.

What's that? $10K per pilot? You're now losing $40K a year at least as compared to CAL/DAL or $50K as compared to ALK and JBLU. Not to mention your horrendous workrules. Got A sectioned last week. Spent the night at home - with pay. What happens when the East is A sectioned? What about vacation? The extra two weeks in the West is worth $5K alone. Not trying to rub it in, just trying to put the $35 million in context.

The sides are set in stone. Time for your bandleaders to deal with that and stop arguing....it's not working.

Nobody is going anywhere for awhile. I suppose the East F/Os are content with fighting this to the end, but there's little to gain by continuing the insane impass. For what it's worth, I chatted with three CLT based F/As the other day in Starbucks at LAX and they all said they are tired of not having a joint contract. Nice ladies. I suppose the East captains have unchangable attitudes towards Nicolau, but the same goes for West pilots. The problem for the impass-crowd is that the fight is just about over and there simply isn't any benefit for the majority of East and West pilots to continue fighting each other. The 9th will slam this shut and that will be it. Sure there's a Writ of Certiorari that's waiting to be filed by Seham, but that has no chance at all, and most pilots will accept that.

It's time to move on.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The sides are set in stone. Time for your bandleaders to deal with that and stop arguing....it's not working.

Yeah, but what are you going to do the next time you lose, and the time after that? Move on, let people and the company move on, attitudes like yours are killing any chance at a future for ALL employees at US.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Move on, let people and the company move on, attitudes like yours are killing any chance at a future for ALL employees at US.

I think you're overestimating their numbers; the majority will move on. It'll be like the end of the Civil War as most will just move on and the remaining holdouts won't be anywhere near a majority. It's probably no more than 1,700.

 

[Phoenix]

I think you're overestimating their numbers; the majority will move on. It'll be like the end of the Civil War as most will just move on and the remaining holdouts won't be anywhere near a majority. It's probably no more than 1,700.

The end of the Civil War?! You're kidding.. already?

Who knew? I think that is gonna require some corroboration.