US Pilots Labor Thread 7/7-7/14 - NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[Megasnoop]

The best case with MDA (since Nicolau does retain jurisdiction) is he slots the pilots somehow. The betting line is that the 9th commends Wake's work and laughs at USAPA for paying Seeham. If USAPA loses the inevitable arbitration on the snapback, the pilots who forced this nonsense will have shot several years, several million dollars in dues, and left money on the table for essentially nothing (and, a cause that any rational human could've seen a mile away as a nonstarter).

No, Id peg that as worst case. Best case is Nicolau gets torqued off and revisits the entire award. Maybe somewhere in between my best and your best. "Betting line?" LAS (domicile) odds? Somehow you seem convinced there is some kind of ratifiable offer out there (with the NIC) that will pass a MIGS vote. There was no offer on the table other than Kirby. That was made to ALPA. Somehow ALPA cut and run on that. Too busy trying to save the mother ship by delaying and not implementing the NIC, via a cram-down contract. All ALPA had ot do was put the entire East MEC into trusteeship, name a trustee and have Prater sign the Kirby.

You may try actually reading Hudson

Oh, I read it. And Ellis as well. Sorry for mixing the 2 up. Not the first one to do that.

See, the West class can mount, under Hudson, a challenge to the fee. And because of Ellis, the test will probably not result in a favorable outcome for USAPA.

Last time you tried this, it was with Ellis V Railway Clerks and managed to confuse the test with the outcome. This time, you've essentially done the same thing.

Read it before you quote it. It helps. A lot.

I confuse the two as well. Nickpicking wont win much though, will it? BTW, Seham tried one of those Ellis/Hudson suits. He lost. Thats got to bite. He has to use his own loss to defend.

Okay I got sucked in again but I have just one question for Mega. Mega do you have any formal law experience or education? I wonder because you seem to quote a lot of "legaleeze" and are amazingly confident about it. Just wondering...

At the USCGA? Your kidding, right? No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I can't even keep Hudson and Ellis straight. Actually, I have a relative whos a real NY lawyer (of counsel, that means hes old) and he sends me some raw data when I ask for specific cases. I dont ask him for help on interprets because once I did and posted. Turned out he was wrong. But you know what free legal advice is worth.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I dont ask him for help on interprets because once I did and posted. Turned out he was wrong. But you know what free legal adivce is worth.

I suppose one would have to look no further than your signature line...

 

[Ct3f]

The only downside to all of this is that a seniority number is just an arbitrary number.
As far as mergers go, AA, Jblu, UAL, WN, Spirit, Airbus here Boeing there, east here west there, doesn't matter a bit. all will be determined by Allegheny/Mohawk (Unless Parker can pull a merger out of the north end of his south bound self with pilots that are represented by usapa) and it will be doh with c&r out the wazoo, no matter which side of the coin you wind up on.
In which case we will ALL have wasted enough money to retire on! (Or at least pay the house off!)

 

[cleardirect]

No, Id peg that as worst case. Best case is Nicolau gets torqued off and revisits the entire award. Maybe somewhere in between my best and your best. "Betting line?" LAS (domicile) odds? Somehow you seem convinced there is some kind of ratifiable offer out there (with the NIC) that will pass a MIGS vote. There was no offer on the table other than Kirby. That was made to ALPA. Somehow ALPA cut and run on that. Too busy trying to save the mother ship by delaying and not implementing the NIC, via a cram-down contract. All ALPA had ot do was put the entire East MEC into trusteeship, name a trustee and have Prater sign the Kirby.

This fairly short statement encompasses a lot of the east misunderstanding or urban legend that has developed around this merger.

First explain why Nicolau would get “torque off� He is not emotionally involved with the list. He looked at the facts of the case and made a decision. It is the east pilots that are emotional about the list. The rest of the world is not. So what exactly would Nicolau get torque about? He was handed a list by the east, it was certified. He does not care what that list looked like. So in fantasy land the MDA guys win and convince another court the AAA list was wrong. Nicolau will say that’s too bad. I was handed a list that is what I used. Go see the people that handed me the list. We are done here.

Do you have any data that there is not a contract that will pass? Predictions mean nothing.

Why did AAA MEC cut and run? Did they do it on their own? Did the east pilots tell them to cut and run? Blaming the AAA MEC then saying that it has nothing to do with the east pilots is just disingenuous.

Now for the biggest myth of all. Yes it is a myth. This was testified to in court under oath. Even if ALPA had put the entire AAA MEC into trusteeship. ALPA could not or would not have “crammed down†a contract. It would have gone to a vote of the membership. The trustee’s would have negotiated along with the AWA NC and gotten to a contract. Yes we would have gotten to a contract because the NC and the MEC would have looked at the contract without the Nicolau bias. They would not have made an assumption that it would not pass.

So in your short statement you regurgitate some of the untruths that have gotten us to where we are. The east pilots either misunderstand or choose to ignore the facts and truth of the situation. Let’s look at another big myth. That west pilots are going to go charging out to the east and “steal†east jobs.

There will be a few. Even if it is 10% it will be 10% from both sides. You are the larger group. 170 go east 300 go west. Net change of 130 east pilots that never had an expectation of flying in the sunny SW. 170 pilots out of 5000 would go unnoticed. Those pilots would be throughout the list not just senior or upgrades. Of the 300 leaving the east would they all be junior F/O’s or maybe some senior captains that would like to spend their last years with a shorter commute?

If you guys are going to worry about something or go to the mattresses learn the facts first. We have wasted hundreds of millions on fear and myth.

 

[cleardirect]

The only downside to all of this is that a seniority number is just an arbitrary number.
As far as mergers go, AA, Jblu, UAL, WN, Spirit, Airbus here Boeing there, east here west there, doesn't matter a bit. all will be determined by Allegheny/Mohawk (Unless Parker can pull a merger out of the north end of his south bound self with pilots that are represented by usapa) and it will be doh with c&r out the wazoo, no matter which side of the coin you wind up on.
In which case we will ALL have wasted enough money to retire on! (Or at least pay the house off!)

Why do you assume that the next merger will be DOH with C&R? A/M does not state DOH. If you can point to the section that says that I would appreciate it. What I have read is that it goes to arbitration. Just like we did before.

Also do not forget that the next merger usapa will be required by the injunction to use the Nicolau list as the certified seniority list. So DOH will not be an issue. If there is a merger there will only be two lists not three. The Nicoalu and the other company. It will not be the other airline, east list and west list.

So just how would the next merger go DOH?

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Why do you assume that the next merger will be DOH with C&R? A/M does not state DOH. If you can point to the section that says that I would appreciate it. What I have read is that it goes to arbitration. Just like we did before.

Also do not forget that the next merger usapa will be required by the injunction to use the Nicolau list as the certified seniority list. So DOH will not be an issue. If there is a merger there will only be two lists not three. The Nicoalu and the other company. It will not be the other airline, east list and west list.

So just how would the next merger go DOH?

Wakes injunction proposal is "USAPA negotiate with US Airways using Nic list only". Unless consumated into contract, there would still be two/three lists at merger time, and with a larger group such as APA as bargaining unit, we might have to relitigate to determine if there is a requirement for them to negotiate with the same.

 

[cleardirect]

Wakes injunction proposal is "USAPA negotiate with US Airways using Nic list only". Unless consumated into contract, there would still be two/three lists at merger time, and with a larger group such as APA as bargaining unit, we might have to relitigate to determine if there is a requirement for them to negotiate with the same.

No!

The injunction says that USAPA, agents, representatives committees, ect. must use the Nicolau.
The merger committee would also be required to use the Nicolau list. The injunction requires the list so it follows that at sometime our seniority will be the Nicolau list.

Even if we merge that will be the list the NC uses.

Do you wonder why the judge but that language in there. Because usapa tries to say that final and binding only applies to the MC. Not this time. It says anyone involved will be required to use Nicolau.

No relitagate required. The injunction stands. Never forget usapa was found liable of DFR. That will follow forever. There is nothing that will remove that.

 

[nic4us]

So just how would the next merger go DOH?

It would not, just as the last merger did not, just as Delta/NW did not, just as 50% of all past mergers did not.

Any merger between LCC and another company would use Nic, and that will be the saving grace for a potential merger. Could you imagine if USAPA was successful in their attempt at stealing seniority. In a future merger the same once furloughed pilots would be able to parlay their windfall into even greater gains against another group.

Underpants makes all this noise about how USAPA would deliver DOH in a merger, and yet forgets that the other , most likely larger, pilot group from the other company will not give a rats a** how long you were furloughed from AAA befor the LCC deal, they will use Nic and argue why the Nic should go to the bottom of their list. They, not us, will shut down any merger and risk our 32000 jobs. The gross underestimation Underpants et al make is that they would have control in a merger, when in fact it is most likely they will be the most minor player in any deal.

 

[nic4us]

No!

The injunction says that USAPA, agents, representatives committees, ect. must use the Nicolau.
The merger committee would also be required to use the Nicolau list. The injunction requires the list so it follows that at sometime our seniority will be the Nicolau list.

Even if we merge that will be the list the NC uses.

Clear, I believe 88 btd is somewhat correct. The language did say reps,agents,etc... will use Nic....in negotiations with USAirways.

But, I also believe you to be correct in that any merger, and Nic is the list for our side.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

the other , most likely larger, pilot group from the other company will not give a rats a** how long you were furloughed from AAA befor the LCC deal, they will use Nic and argue why the Nic should go to the bottom of their list.

Good friend of mine hired by United in 99 was furloughed yesterday.

 

[nic4us]

Good friend of mine hired by United in 99 was furloughed yesterday.

Sorry to hear this news. I have friends at United also. Wish there was something we could do, but the harsh truth is I also have friends at LCC ( both east and west) who have also felt the sting of the current economy.

 

[Freighterguynow]

And has for east resolve - its fading and fading fast.

Amen boys. You need to be on the next jet bound for CLT. Camp out in front of Ops and start the signature campaign!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Clear, I believe 88 btd is somewhat correct. The language did say reps,agents,etc... will use Nic....in negotiations with USAirways. But, I also believe you to be correct in that any merger, and Nic is the list for our side.

And that is why Judge Wake will have continuing jurisdiction in this matter. A judge is not going to pencil in every plausible scenario in an injunction. Rather, he or she is going to do exactly what Judge Wake did here: address the remedy given the current circumstances and facts. If those circumstances change, then the judge can modify the injunction upon proper request by a party. It's not much different than a custody order where the judge reserves jurisdiction until the kids reach majority age - things change and when they do, all parties go back into court and tweak the original order. But when the first custody order is issued, it is done with the current facts and circumstances in mind.

 

[luvn737s]

Amen boys. You need to be on the next jet bound for CLT. Camp out in front of Ops and start the signature campaign!

There's a grain of genius in that statement. AOL would do well to get some folks on the east to build grassroots support to change USAPA's direction. Perhaps opening an office in CLT or PHL would give those east pilots dissatisfied with USAPA's current direction a tangible base from which to start such a movement.

A van would be tacky.

 

[hp_fa]

From the outside of this process I see the alternatives being as follows:

1. USAPA receives and understands the message and changes their positions to embrace more moderate positions and living within the spirit of the injunction about to be issued;

2. If it were to be deemed necessary for folks to vote USAPA out as the sole bargaining agent ("SBA") it is necessary to not repeat the mistakes of USAPA, specifically one person leading the charge having been provided bad legal advice and, in conformance with that advice, misleading pilots as to the true intent of the campaign to remove the SBA.

If AOL were to lead the charge I see problems from East pilots who perceive AOL as being a West only organization and, possibly, be deemed as a troublemaker rather than being a problem solver. I don't know much of the pilot who recently lost the USAPA presidency to Mr. Cleary, but it is my understanding that he had a different view for USAPA then the present course. Without knowing whether he would be willing to participate in such an undertaking, he might be someone who could take a role in forming such a campaign, perhaps in connection with AOL as a representative of the West.

The question also arises as to whether the USAPA constitution has any provisions in it about whether individuals who seek to replace USAPA as SBA in terms of continuing membership within USAPA.

Another question arises and that is whether any potential new union affiliates with any other existing union such as ALPA, APA or any of the other pilot or labor unions. I know a lot of people seemingly retain bad feelings about ALPA, but I still perceive most of that ill-will not targeted so much at ALPA itself, but rather at the folks that the pilots voted into local positions within the MEC and LEC's. My point in even raising this is that the larger unions potentially have more benefits and support than smaller or sole unions.

These are just some of the issues that potentially need to be considered. As I said, the first option at this point is that USAPA gets the message and changes it course and saves its pilot group a lot of problems that would arise with the collection of representation cards and possible a new election on the question of who will become the SBA of the pilot group.

Have fun posting folks. I am gonna go change into my asbestos clothing in preparation for the inevitable posts that are bound to be coming my way.